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6 speed - new clutch and flywheel probs

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I just had a shop put in a new clutch (SPEC stage 1) and a lightweight flywheel (Fidanza) in my '96 LT4 vette.

The Tranny is as expected much more noisy at idle...

What I didn't expect:
*rough engagement in 1st and reverse (rough being very rough) The shop says it is because of the stage 1 Vs. Stock... they say it is biting better (it does seem to bite very well... but, I haven't floored it either)

*Tranny noise all the way up to about 2,000 RPM. Above that, it is like it used to be, below that I can hear the 'rocks in the tranny sound' The sound changes with gear changes.

My question is, is this 'normal'?
 
Joined
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After driving the car home last night, and back to work today, I don't think this is set up correctly. can anyone help with what the problem may be?

It is fine if you don't feather the clutch much (meaning, use more throttle to get up and go) but when you feather it, forget it. It shakes so bad the whole car shakes... If I put my right foot on the brake and slowly let the clutch out, as it engages the whole car starts to shake. I have a hard time getting it into my garage because you have to get on it so hard, moving short distances (a foot-2 feet) is difficult.
 
R

Randy Eads

Guest
Vettelt193 said:
After driving the car home last night, and back to work today, I don't think this is set up correctly. can anyone help with what the problem may be?

.
Sounds like something isnt compatable with the flywheel disk, pressure plate match (maybe wrong thickness of disk?) I would bypass the installer and go directly to the various manufacuers for answers .... starting with the pressure plate/disk people.

Proper balance is also a serious issue ... you get shakes at high rpm?
 
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i am getting a slight vibration at high rpm, but nothing major.

The Disk and flywheel came from Mid America, from the same part of the catalogue... .they are supposed to work together... so I hope that isn't the problem:(
 

96CERon

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Sounds like the clutch is not releasing all the way with the trouble getting in to 1st and reverse. Biting better comment sounds like BS. Did they match balance the flywheel to the old dual mass. The gear clatter and clutch spring resonance sounds the same as what I get from about 1000 to 2000RPM from my Fidanza and stage 2 kit from Carolina Clutch--Valeo pressure plate. As stated above go directly to the manufacturer. Unfortunately most of the after market suppliers a just interested in getting your money and you may have to work them hard to get answers.
 
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no trouble getting it into gear...

once it is in gear, as I let the clutch out, the car shakes like heck. Once the clutch is all the way out, all is fine. It seems like an engagement problem, it just isn't smooth. Once it is out though, it holds just fine... it really does seem to bite well. I haven't gotten all the way on it yet, but with even 50% throttle it is way better than stock for performance. that is the odd part of it all.

I used to be able to just use the clutch to get the car moving in slow conditions... say, to back up slowly or to move the car into the garage. There is no way I can do that now because it shakes so bad at low RPM.

I asked them to match the flywheel, I assume they did, but am not sure (it was also clearly stated in the instructions). However, I am going to go back to the shop to double check later today.
 

74bigblock

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I had the exact same issue with my Trans Am. I put a new fly wheel and a Centerforce clutch in. When I would roll out of the clutch in first the car would buck around and make bad noises. Same thing in reverse. In all the other gears it was fine.

This is normal. The clutch surface needs to break in, and will have that bucking for a few hundred miles. You should notice it lessening as you get towards 3-500 miles. Once mine was broke in... I no longer had the issue. I now have about 8K on the setup, and no probs.

I would work with the shop that did the install. If it doesnt get better, take it back in and have them look.

Hope it works out ok for you.
 

96CERon

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Another question--did you put in a clutch disk with the spring hub. As i'm sure you know the original is a solid disk with the engagement "softening" being provided by the dual mass flywheel. You can check to see if clutch releasing by raising both rear wheels off the ground. Have some one push in the the clutch and try to rotate the wheels with the trans in gear. Should be able to easily rotate wheels
 
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Blk/Blk '96 LT4 Coupe
Vettelt193 said:
no trouble getting it into gear...

once it is in gear, as I let the clutch out, the car shakes like heck. Once the clutch is all the way out, all is fine. It seems like an engagement problem, it just isn't smooth. Once it is out though, it holds just fine... it really does seem to bite well. I haven't gotten all the way on it yet, but with even 50% throttle it is way better than stock for performance. that is the odd part of it all.

I used to be able to just use the clutch to get the car moving in slow conditions... say, to back up slowly or to move the car into the garage. There is no way I can do that now because it shakes so bad at low RPM.

QUOTE]

I have the same problem w/ mine. I had the ZF Doc do the hydraulics and he said that my car definitely has an aftermarket/performance clutch in it (this is w/o opening it up and actually seeing it). Once I'm rolling the clutch feels great but taking off in 1st or reverse is not pretty. It's like I have to get on it in order to get going. Not to mention, try taking off on an upgrade. I'm not ready to put in a new clutch cuz this one doesn't slip at all and feels new.
Let me know what you find out on yours cuz it sounds like exactly what I am dealing with. Also, it doesn't go away cuz mine has been doing it since I bought it w/ 21k on it, and I'm now at 28k. I'm about ready to have the ZF Doc tear into it and do some exploratory surgery but, it's @#$%! X-mas and I'm strapped!!
Good luck,
Jeff
PS Why can't I get this "quote" thing right:hb ?????
 
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96CERon said:
Another question--did you put in a clutch disk with the spring hub. As i'm sure you know the original is a solid disk with the engagement "softening" being provided by the dual mass flywheel. You can check to see if clutch releasing by raising both rear wheels off the ground. Have some one push in the the clutch and try to rotate the wheels with the trans in gear. Should be able to easily rotate wheels
yep, spring hub on the clutch... the company caught their mistake (SPEC) before i did, and sent 2 sets to me with a warning.
 
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74bigblock said:
I had the exact same issue with my Trans Am. I put a new fly wheel and a Centerforce clutch in. When I would roll out of the clutch in first the car would buck around and make bad noises. Same thing in reverse. In all the other gears it was fine.

This is normal. The clutch surface needs to break in, and will have that bucking for a few hundred miles. You should notice it lessening as you get towards 3-500 miles. Once mine was broke in... I no longer had the issue. I now have about 8K on the setup, and no probs.

I would work with the shop that did the install. If it doesnt get better, take it back in and have them look.

Hope it works out ok for you.
That is the best news I have heard yet :) Thanks!
 
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JEFNLSA said:
.....Not to mention, try taking off on an upgrade.....
I hear ya on the up-hill thing... that is the horrible!

I will let you know if I find anything out. for now I am going to try to put a few hundred miles on it and see how she goes... hopefully it will break in a bit and soften up.


Thanks again to everyone for all the feedback... I was really worried and now I feel a bit better about thinkgs
 

74bigblock

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No prob! BTW.. Sweet ride! I love 96 CE's!
 

96CERon

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No Engagement problem or chattering

74bigblock said:
No prob! BTW.. Sweet ride! I love 96 CE's!

My Fidanza with Stage 2 disc and Valeo pressure plate from Carolina Clutch has no chattering etc forward or back. It is as smooth as the original just obnoxious "gear clatter" between 1K and 2K rpm under heavy to moderate acceleration otherwise runs good and I've got less than 150 miles on it.
 
S

stgry1

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Hey Ron, did you have any balancing issues with the Fidanza? I hear you need to match balance with the DM etc etc.....but I'm really curious just how many people actually do this. Thanks
:beer
 

AdvancedAutoCC

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Vettelt193 said:
I just had a shop put in a new clutch (SPEC stage 1) and a lightweight flywheel (Fidanza) in my '96 LT4 vette.

The Tranny is as expected much more noisy at idle...

What I didn't expect:
*rough engagement in 1st and reverse (rough being very rough) The shop says it is because of the stage 1 Vs. Stock... they say it is biting better (it does seem to bite very well... but, I haven't floored it either)

*Tranny noise all the way up to about 2,000 RPM. Above that, it is like it used to be, below that I can hear the 'rocks in the tranny sound' The sound changes with gear changes.

My question is, is this 'normal'?

ZF trannys were/are noisy creatures (saw a lot of warranty complaints with them for "noise" concerns). The dual mass flywheel helps to dampen some of this, but not all.
As an aside, if you ever take a ride in an older Vette with a genuine M22 "rockcrusher", you'll think the ZF is as quiet as a churchmouse in comparison. The straightcut gears howled like the bearings were bad...part of living with a high-performance vehicle.

Moving to the clutch, some roughness when engaging can be considered "normal"... with superior grip comes harsher engagement. The clutchmaker considers the increased friction necessary for high RPM operation as well as low RPM torque and consequently the release can be affected. Take a look at some race clutches in a Nextel Cup car for example...two modes of operation, "on" and "off" (and they hit like a sledgehammer).

A lot of people don't realize what they're getting into when deviating from stock in cases like this, and though the C4 is a somewhat "refined" car, it is still a high-performance automobile. Along with this comes little "quirks", etc. that you must expect, especially when modifying one.
 

Chris Kennedy

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A long time ago I had another car with a hydralic clutch engagement/release mechanism, and had the same "chatter" problem after I got the clutch replaced---it turned out to be air in the mechanism which entered while everything was opened-up. Try bleeding the clutch hydralics, and see if that helps. With the C4 I am finding that leaving things stock seems to ultimately work the best. All the light weight flywheel manufacturers will tell you how their flywheel saves rotational mass, etc., but what they won't tell you is that in street driving that can actually be a disadvantage in getting off the line. In other words, if you race the car the lightweight flywheel is fine, but in the real world there's a real downside. Also, I have been very impressed as to how smooth and "electric motor-like" the L98 with the ZFs are, and I suspect some of this is attributable to things like the heavy dual mass flywheel, the "frisbie" on the waterpump etc. If you shop around a bit, I have found that you can actually get a dualmass flywheel, as well as ZF, for a lot less than the horror stories would have you believe. Be sure to let us know how this turns out.

/s/ Chris Kennedy
Houston, Texas
 
1

1-E-Tkt

Guest
To everyone, I am just curious, why avoid sticking with the dualmass when replacing the clutch set-up ? Is it the price of a dual-mass that is a turn-off or does the Fidanza just have that much better bite?

I am to the point at 55K miles that a new clutch is in my future and I am at a quandry as to what to do.

And what dictates if the old dual-mass flywheel needs replacement? ..... the shop manual says replace it everytime along with a new plate/disk .... but I have heard of some vette owners that just lite-sanded the old one and things were fine.
 

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