Big Brakes, Big Tanks, FI

[Tom Bryant]

With 113 cars displayed and 70 judged at the Indana Regional there were some really unique Corvettes to look at. Of the 6 cars in the 59-60 class 4 were FI. In the 58 class of 4 cars 2 were FI. Of the 19 '67s judged 2 were big block delete cars. :eyerole Here are 4 solid axle cars that stood out to us high hp lovers. Here are some pics. I'll be putting together an album later when I get the film developed. (Yes I do still use the Canon F1 along with the digital at shows).

 

[Tom Bryant]

A couple more. The white '59 is an original unrestored car. How about a blue stinger and blue interior for you midyear guys?

 

[JohnZ]

The unrestored white '59 belongs to one of my chapter members (Don Baron, from Lansing); it has Top-Flighted several times, and is VERY original.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I got to help judge chassis on the 59-60 class. It was a pleasure to look at an all original '59 that has been owned since 1960. Don was fun to talk to about the car also.

 

[c5vetter]

last pix was for ProTeam car - it received a 2nd Flight from NCRS - there were some "issues" with the car during judging

 

[corvettesal]

"last pix is NOT a ProTeam car"

The last picture is a 1967 Black/Blue 435 Convertible which is believed to be "One of One produced". IT IS NOT A PRO-TEAM CAR! The car is owned by a Columbus, Oh collector, and received a Top Flight Award with a score above 99%.

 

[c5vetter]

when I posted, Tom had not put his second set of pix up! so in the first set of pix, it is a 1962 ProTeam car and it did HAVE ISSUES! as did, several other ProTeam cars, which I judged chassis on

 

[Tom Bryant]

Welcome to the CAC corvettesal.

That black with blue stinger and interior '67 was a striking car with that color combo. I'm not sure what the issues were with the silver '62. I was in the judging school on Saturday and didn't OJ on them.

Tom

 

[c5vetter]

Tom,

not sure of all the problems - just know that it got a 2nd Flight

 

[Tom Bryant]

I heard that the big tank midyear he had up for flight judging was highly suspect also.

 

[c5vetter]

Tom,

yeah, the "Z06" tanker received a 2nd Flight; also, one of the 1967's ProTeam had there for Flight judging was pulled for "issues" and did NOT receive any Flight award

 

[Tom Bryant]

I'll try to expalin to members that may not be familiar with the NCRS judging system.

Just off the cuff of course but I think this goes back to the misconception that if a car obtains a top flight that it is certified to be real as judged, which, of course, is not the case at all. NCRS does not certify any car to be "real". To the uniformed buyer though, a car advertised as being Top Flight "certified" quite often means that the car has been inspected by experts and determined to be the "real deal". (a current Pro Team catch phrase used in their advertising).

As we know the awards are presented to cars that appear to be as they were at point of manufacture and an NCRS award does not certify the car as being anything. A car with issues means that there are things that the judges are seeing that raise doubt as to the originality of certain items or features on a car. It's getting harder all the time to fool the judges. There are specific rules agains counterfitting and definitions explaining the difference between that and reproducing.

It's one thing for a collector to present a car or several cars for flight judging and find areas on some of them that were incorrectly restored and quite another to present cars that raise doubt as to whether the cars were equiped as such when built. An example would be the '59 and '60 that were among one member's group of cars that had amazingly beautiful base/clear paint jobs. I asked on Saturday and I was told the they were both given zero points for originality on the paint which also meant that they didn't get any condition points. The other side of this is a car that has a big tank and the judges are seeing features on this car that are not consistant with cars originally equiped with a big tank. If a car has feature "A" and it has been documanted over the years from factory records and/or observed actual cars that feature "A" was never found on a big tank car then then questions have to be answered. A total loss of originality points in that area of the car can result.

So would someone put together a car and attempt to get it a Top Flight just so they can advertise it as being the real deal and get a lot more $$ for it? You be the judge. On the other hand there are cases where someone has a car that they bought thinking it was real and during the judging it becomes obvious that it isn't what they thought it was. So just because the car on the judging feild isn't right doesn't mean that the person presenting it for judging meant to try to fool the judges.

 

[c5vetter]

Tom,

great job on explaining the "nuances" of the Flight judging - one other "problem" with ProTeam and even private individuals - when they list a car for sale as a NCRS TOP FLIGHT car, they don't tell you the award is only good on that day!

In other words, it doesn't mean that the next day the car will necessarily score the same, if you have a different set of judges - so many items are SUBJECTIVE, when they come to condition, and even originality.

FYI - what is the old joke - there have been MORE NCRS Top Flight big block cars than were ever built - so, now the "rare" one is the "big block" delete option!

 

[BarryK]

Tom

great explanation.

About a month or so back I was OJ'ing with Rick at an event. One car that was being judged was a SB car that had a TI ignition system in it. We observed that on the firewall was a hole for the ballast resister screw. If there was a hole that meant there had been a ballast resister but TI systems don't have the ballast resister so we looked further. Under the left hood latch there should have been a wire clamp for the TI wiring that runs around that corner than up to the front where the module mounts. That clamp wasn't present like it should have been on a TI system. This was an issue.......
To confirm what we were looking at we compared to a couple of other cars there that were also TI systems. One car that we had no doubt about showed up that we were right.
The "funny thing is one of the other cars there was a L71 427/435 car that also had the hole in the firewall. Since the L71's ONLY came with the TI system that car definitely had some issues...........

Sorry, when I'm referring to a "hole" I mean a true open hole. The TI cars didn't use that hole so it should have been plugged.

 

[c5vetter]

Barry,

thanks for reminding me! boy, that was a tough call on that car! we had to basically take all of the points off for TI ignition, and the owner was not a happy camper! if I remember correctly, car still got a Top Flight

 

[BarryK]

Rick, yep, I believe it did still top flight.
That L71 car did too I think but I believe there were others issues and doubts regarding it also besides the TI system.
Gee, you don't think somebody would have "faked" up a '67 L71 car do you?

 

[Tom Bryant]

And then there is the fact that a car that is Top Flighted could have several valuable and rare parts removed and replaced with repro or just available replacement parts before it was offered for sale. One judge told me that he was sure that he had judged the same wheels and tires at least 4 times on different cars owned by the same collector at different events. It was hard to prove so what are you going to do?