C-6 engines for C-5's???

[Terry Holtz]

Just how complicated will it be to swap one of these new c-6 engines, like the LS-2, (or perhaps the new zo-6 engine ) into a c-5? This is a project for perhaps five years down the road but I like dreaming about it. Maybe aftermarket companies will offer message board patches to allow for these swaps.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Great question!
The hardware would be easy. The LS2 is virtually the same size as the LS1/6. There might be some issues with connecting the exhaust and some issues with accessories, but I'd think getting the motor into the car, as far as engine swaps go, would be fairly easy.

The hard part might be the engine controls. It's a bit eary yet to know for sure but probably the best way to go would be to try and control the LS2 with the existing C5/Gen III controls.

Someday, LS2 into C5 is going to make an excellent tech. story for a magazine.

 

[cavettefan]

Terry, do you really want to play system integrator? As Hib notes, there will be any number of computer interfaces that will not be the same between the C5 PCM and the C6 PCM. If you are looking for additional horsepower and torque, go with an upgrade to the LS1/LS6 engine. There are many vendors that have complete packages available for upgrading the performance of the LS1/LS6 engine. An extreme example is a 383 cubic inch stroker that is built around an LS6 engine. For $18,000 you get close to 500 hp and 500 ft/lbs in a package that is Calif. CARB exempt. (e.g. You can drive the car on public roads in Calif.) If you want to go supercharged, the hp and torque numbers can get into 650 - 750 territory. There is a separate issue about drivetrain (transmission, differential) durability; however, that can also be cured - it is only a matter of money....

 

[Terry Holtz]

>>>>>any number of computer interfaces that will not be the same between the C5 PCM and the C6 PCM. If you are looking for additional horsepower and torque, go with an upgrade to the LS1/LS6 engine. There are many vendors that have complete packages <<<<<

Thank you for your replies. It seems to me that the 400 cid LS-2 would be a far more dependable up-grade than some exotic after market engine package. If the PCM interface problem could be solved then it would be the way to go. Could be an extremely popular swap in a few years. Why do the after-market Corvette parts companies fail to market towards such simple ideas? Well... maybe PCM up-grades are not all that simple but an after-market kit to repair the gas gauge or the common trunk lid problems would be a certain hit. But while those common problems seem to be ignored by the catalogs they instead offer us twenty different bra designs.

 

[ZZRider]

Hi Terry. Most of the reputable tuner's packages can be quite dependable and in my opinion no more exotic than putting an LS2/computer work into the C5. A reliable heads/cam package can get you well over 450 now, some H/C cars are exceeding 500 hp. I put over 40k miles on my 383 (500+hp)/nitrous(700+hp)with no problems at all, not one. I have over 25k miles on my 422 with ATI F1 Procharger at way over that without any major problems (just a belt). I think a lot of it has to do with the quality of your tuner/mechanic as well as the product. That is still going to be true with any engine/computer work or swap.

The idea of the LS2 into the C5 does sound intersting. If someone can stuff a 502 big block into a C5 (its been done), then this should be quite doable. If the LS2's are affordable, and the computer issues are readily solved, you may be right about the poularity for the C5s upgrade.

 

[Mr Cowl Hood]

Why do you feel that way?

>>>>>any number of computer interfaces that will not be the same between the C5 PCM and the C6 PCM. If you are looking for additional horsepower and torque, go with an upgrade to the LS1/LS6 engine. There are many vendors that have complete packages <<<<<

Thank you for your replies. It seems to me that the 400 cid LS-2 would be a far more dependable up-grade than some exotic after market engine package. If the PCM interface problem could be solved then it would be the way to go. Could be an extremely popular swap in a few years. Why do the after-market Corvette parts companies fail to market towards such simple ideas? Well... maybe PCM up-grades are not all that simple but an after-market kit to repair the gas gauge or the common trunk lid problems would be a certain hit. But while those common problems seem to be ignored by the catalogs they instead offer us twenty different bra designs.

Terry,

I see where you're going with the thread, but I have to ask why you feel that a GM born engine placed in a car that it doesn't belong in, makes more sense (dependabilitywise) than an aftermarket, engineered, cam and heads package (at the very least) that would outperform the oddball engine and last as long as if you hadn't changed a thing? :confused

 

[Terry Holtz]

>>>>>>>I have to ask why you feel that a GM born engine placed in a car that it doesn't belong in, makes more sense (dependabilitywise) than an aftermarket, engineered, cam and heads package <<<<<<

I admitt I am not a mechanic but it makes sense to me that GM has the engineers to make something dependable. Also, aftermarket engines I suspect come in many different states of tuning which would make the PCM interface problem that much more difficult. Where as a crated GM motor would be such a standard swap that perhaps PCM packages could be offered to compliment them.

 

[Rain]

Hey Terry
Thanks for making the gigs the past 2 nights(and for bringing the vette)!

Sounds like you are pretty serious about more Horsepower in that red rocket of yours.
Good luck!
See ya on the highway
Rain

 

[Terry Holtz]

Both shows were great fun. Lot's of pretty girls to look at too. Ever find out who's Lotus that was? As far as the horsepower, I am all talk! It will be four years before I do anything to the engine.

 

[Rain]

Both shows were great fun. Lot's of pretty girls to look at too. Ever find out who's Lotus that was? As far as the horsepower, I am all talk! It will be four years before I do anything to the engine.

Agree 100% - the women who go there are of a much finer breed!

nope, asked James if he knew and he said no.
Guess I could have asked over the mic!

HOw did it pan out at Sully's?

 

[cavettefan]

The single greatest obstacle to getting a C6 PCM to work in a C5 environment is the software. For starters, GM is not going to publish any of the source code. (There are a number of reasons, chief of which is liability for lawsuits filed by wannabees that thought they could do an interface and screwed it up.) You are then faced with a reverse engineering process. Reverse engineering is an extremely labor-intensive process. (And very prone to errors; which is why it is labor intensive - you are continually finding and fixing the errors....) Once you have a working reverse engineered PCM, you run the risk of being obsoleted by updates that GM releases in response to TSBs (start all over again with the reverse engineering exercise). Next challenge is where you have a function that is controlled on the LS2/LS7 by the C6 PCM for which there is no duplicate in the C5 PCM (such as an injection point, or an air injection profile, or whatever). What to do? (That is its own engineering challenge.)

I really doubt if you want to take on the challenge of integrating the C6 PCM into the rest of the C5's computer systems. You probably have a better chance at winning the PowerBall lottery. Why you believe that quality tuners such as Lingenfelter et al can not produce a quality product is beyond me. If they produced an inferior product, they would not be in business. If you are looking to get more hp and torque for your C5, you should seriously consider a tuner that has a track record at delivering quality performance packages. You will get much more enjoyment from a quality tuner rather than hold out hope that someone will crack the nut of integrating the C6 PCM into the C5 operating environment.

 

[Terry Holtz]

My brother the computer genious wrote back that he agreed with the following statement:

>>>>>I really doubt if you want to take on the challenge of integrating the C6 PCM into the rest of the C5's computer systems. You probably have a better chance at winning the PowerBall lottery.<<<<<

Soooo I guess you are correct. Therefore my next question is: Why should I go to Lingenfelter and spend $15k when I can get an LS-7 for (hopefully) around $8K? And probably alot cheaper salvaged from a wreck.

 

[ZZRider]

Terry, there are many other excellent tuners out there besides LPE, most are substantially less expensive.

Don't get me wrong, LPE provides excellent products, no doubt about it, but they do seem a bit more expensive.

Here is an example of a less expensive option from a very reputable tuner:450-475 Heads/cam package: 450hp engine/400rwhp (475hp if the LS6), springs, pushrods, air intake, exhaust, custom PCM, full installation and testing, dyno tuning, and other things; 1yr/12k mi warranty; $5850

I do not wish to single out any one tuner, but I can give you the link if you want. The fact is there are many similar packages at comparable prices. You do not need to spend $15k to get over 450hp. I know of at least one Heads/cam car putting out over 500hp at the engine.

ZZ

 

[Hib Halverson]

The single greatest obstacle to getting a C6 PCM to work in a C5 environment is the software.
(snip)

I think the way to approach this is to use the C5s PCM to control the LS2. That task would be far less complex than trying to get the '05 PCM to work with the C5 electrical system.

 

[c4c5specialist]

I think the way to approach this is to use the C5s PCM to control the LS2. That task would be far less complex than trying to get the '05 PCM to work with the C5 electrical system.

Hi there,
If I may comment on integrations of the c5 vs c6.
The concern, IMO, based on what I am aware of the c6 design, is wiring and PCM design itself, NOT just communications data lines.
The Throttle actuation control is built inside the PCM on c6, this was not the case in c5. There was a separate control computer for the throttle system.
While the communications data lines are definately entirely different using GMLAN 2 wire communication for the major powertrain and traction control systems, the subsystems are very similar, using Class 2 single wire.
This, plus integration of the TAC module inside the PCM, creates the issue here.
I feel that Hib is on the right track, installing a 6.0 LS2 in the c5.
I have only one concern with the mechanical aspect, the cam phasing portion of the engine, which carries a different oiling system than on previous engines.
Other than that, I feel Hibs ideas are the best, and most cost effective.

Time will tell, because there is already a study being done on this.
Allthebest, c4c5 :eek

 

[Hib Halverson]

Hi there,
(snip)
I feel that Hib is on the right track, installing a 6.0 LS2 in the c5.
I have only one concern with the mechanical aspect, the cam phasing portion of the engine, which carries a different oiling system than on previous engines.
(snip)

I checked with GMPT this morning. The LS2 does not have a cam phaser nor does it use DoD. While the block has the revised oiling system required by both those features, neither is used on the 6L Gen IV at this time. Actually, from a hydraulic standpoint, the existence of of those systems is irrlevant. What is the issue, IF THEY WERE PRESENT, would be, as c4c5 Specialist says, the electronic controls.

I think a challenge might be this:

The Throttle actuation control is built inside the PCM on c6, this was not the case in c5. There was a separate control computer for the throttle system.

What's unknown is if the wire connections at the C6 TB are the same as C5 and if the actuator on the C6 TB is similar enough to C5s that the C5 signal could be used to run it.

Also....we gotta change his screen name to "c4c5c6 Specialist"
Have a nice weekend everyone.

 

[cavettefan]

Hib and c4c5specialist have it on point - the issues will be with the TAC and the software that controls the TAC from the PCM. There may be a problem with the wiring if the wiring does not have the capacity to handle a volume of data. From an intellectual curiousity perspective, it will be interesting to see if the nut gets cracked. Stay tuned (so to speak).

One further consideration - is the cost of the integration "product". I doubt it will come in below $2,000 a copy. (Probably more, depending on what it cost to develop the TAC to PCM and back work-around.) Adding $2,000 to the price of a LS2/LS7 engine would tend to make performance packages for the C5 LS1/LS6 engine more competitive. If you want more performance in the right now timeframe, go with performance packages for the C5 LS1/LS6 engine.

One last comment about this project that would be applicable in states that have state-specific emission control laws (such as California where I live): The finished product would more than likely have to comply with 2005+ emission requirements, since when you replace the engine that is in a car with a more recent engine, the emission requirements for the more recent engine are applicable. Whether the CA DMV would catch on is another matter; however, you still have the potential liability, which does not have a statute of limitations. This is yet another reason to go with a LS1/LS6 performance package.... (Especially if you live in states like California and the package comes with a CARB exemption certificate.)

 

[c4c5specialist]

I checked with GMPT this morning. The LS2 does not have a cam phaser nor does it use DoD. While the block has the revised oiling system required by both those features, neither is used on the 6L Gen IV at this time. Actually, from a hydraulic standpoint, the existence of of those systems is irrlevant. What is the issue, IF THEY WERE PRESENT, would be, as c4c5 Specialist says, the electronic controls.

Have a nice weekend everyone.

HI there, Hib,
Yes, that is what I was concerned about. I knew about the no DOD, but not about the phaser, Thank you.
Then, what about this????????? Installing 02 to 04 intake and throttle body from an LS6 on the LS2????? This would make the wiring for the TAC moot. Relocate the knock sensor harness, and oil pressure wiring to the sensing unit and the oil temperature sensor, and it might just work.....
This actually could be fun.
Allthebest, c4c5c6

 

[fdxpilot]

It doesn't seem to matter what you gentleman say about the difficulty of this project, this guy is bound and determined that he will put a C6 engine in his C5. Makes you wonder why he solicits opinions. Me, I'm going to save up and get a C6 to keep my C5 company.