C4 Painting Advice

[CGM's1988vette]

Anyone out there with painting advice on the C4?

My goal is to find a article/manual in which someone documented all the steps as they painted their C4. I have a red 1988 C4 with the clear coat flacking off on the hood and rear top panel. No real body damage besides some slight paint cracks. This is no show car just an awesome drive.

As I’m low on cash, have some car painting experience and enjoy working on the vette, I’m planning to repaint the car myself with some help from buddies. As I have never painted a vette, I’m looking for advice and manuals/information. Here are a few of my questions / thoughts:

# Too difficult to only remove clear coat requiring going into color coat.

# Would I be able to only scuff the color coat?

# Should I remove all the color down to primer or bare fiberglass?

# Can I use chemicals or best to sand – by hand or air tools – concerned about damaging the fiberglass?

# What all do I have to remove – rear hatch – mirrors – grill – rear lights – side moldings

# I have only used the traditional high pressure older spray guns. Is the learning curve to dangerous to use the new high volume low pressure on this job?

# Is there a big difference in paint quality between manufacturers? My NAPA store offers both high end and non- brand name types.

# For an average weekend enthusiast, how long would it take to prep the car for paint – only scuff paint or remove paint down to fiberglass?

# I also have to replace all rear hatch seals, removable hard top, door seals, and door window seals, any removal / installation tricks or good place to purchase replacement parts?


I greatly appreciate any information you are able to provide.

 

[boomdriver]

I'm also doing this and CAN tell you this much...
deep sanding is a no-no because you can easily end up with "waves" in the surface from the fiber-glass or epoxie body.

Applying paint over paint leads to a thickness thats unacceptable and will crack and peel.
Edges are especially susceptable and any mask or taped edges WILL peel sooner or later.

To do it RIGHT and get a long lasting, nice finish,

remove everything that you possibly can. weather strip, body mouldings, lite housings..etc. ANYWHERE that you'd tape off and make an edge...
Use chemical stripper. I am NO EXPERT in this, but I do know that removing the old paint down to the gel-coat allows the new color the flexibility and adhesion to last. When paint gets too thick, it cracks and peels. If it has orange peel, it has to be deeply polished out and to have a new color coat thick enough for that, will be TOO thick on top of old paint. You need 3 wet coats of color and to have enough to rub out even once.... a couple clear coats on top of that. Don;t fall into the "intergrated clear-coat" BS...thats all that is, BS. Mixing color with clear makes color. period.

Its pointless to put nice paint on top of bad paint.

I got an est of $450 @ Macco to completely strip down to the glass.
The process includes all the removal, and using a neutalizer when its all done.
I have no choice. Mines already been repainted, so this time I gotta strip. Besides, thats the ONLY way to change color and do it right. If you change color and don;t strip, every ding shows thru and every scratch shows the old paint layer.

Paint quality....see the WEIGHT of the paint. The heavier it is, the more solids in the color and the thicker and tougher the color. The more you can polish it.

remember, silver eats itself in time because it reflects within itself. UV rays are many times more distructive to silvers.

prep time...for the weekend warrior....4 weeks. Stripping will take a weekend at least, then the clean up, and then you have to take the car apart. remove door seals, lite boxes, all the mouldings...

Sure, you CAN mask it off and tape over the black moulding, but that leaves an exposed paint edge....

scuffing the paint to make a bondable surface will work with todays paints. Thats how Earl Shieb does it........



I'm NOT trying to make this seem difficult or impossible,....its a LOT of work to do right. If the car is to be sold, mask things off and scuff away. If you plan on looking at it for the next few yrs...do it right, especially if you have the time. Its NOT about how much money you put into the project....painting is 100% about the prep...the time you put into it.

BTW..I got my complete cabin weather strip 7 piece set that is perfect, from Gulf Coast corvette in Houston. I think it was around $499..... Do that after paint so the rubber does not get painted or over sprayed and you can paint the body edges under the weather strip. No exposed edges...

Keep this thought in mind...the paints today are like your skin. If YOU do not have edges somewhere, then the skin can;t peel away.

 

[Rex S]

Look around your area for a soda blasting company. Soda will not harm anything including glass and does not cut through the gelcoat (with a good operator). Soda will not even harm old Bondo.

 

[boomdriver]

Look around your area for a soda blasting company. Soda will not harm anything including glass and does not cut through the gelcoat (with a good operator). Soda will not even harm old Bondo.

I HAVE heard that as well...

great idea!
I have been VERY curious about soda blasting and would like to see it used on something. I friend told me that a trailer rig could be rented for 2 or $300 a weekend to be used on your own property.
The use of chemicals to strip has always worried me a bit. Even with a bath in neutralizer, I still worry about it being in cracks and other hidden spots where it could ruin new paint. The shops swear by it though..

 

[joshwilson3]

I've always heard no Corvette actually came from the factory with a gel coat. It is said the "gel coat" is a myth.

There is a factory sealer on the body. But from what all I've read, that isn't an actual gel coat.

But I guess that's an endless debate.

 

[Schrade]

If your PAINT is good, start with a hand-polishing. 2000 grit, wet, then rubbing compound 2x, then PREMIUM polishing compound, at least 3x.

I spent about 6 - 7 weeks doing mine, and I learned ALOT about STERILE work environment. Lint falling off a sweatshirt under the rubbing pad, hair, dust, separate pads for EVERYTHING, stored in a bag, etc., etc., etc. After 2 months, I had serious lats and delts poppin' up

You'd finish a section, lookin' like glass, and then in the corner, you'd see a nice etch, and have to do that part over. madad . You can hear stuff under the 2000 grit paper, and stop and rinse. But if something got under the pad, you were jammed, cause you couldn't hear or see anything, till wipedown.

Some product comparison here .

This rear corner took a whole day - and it took a few more passes still, before switching to premium polish... Notice that orange peel on the corner. When it's gone, it looks like glass YUP...

Wax shows up in the last pic. The polish was loaded with it (Turtle Wax Polishing Compound) I had to switch to PREMIUM TW PC...

 

[boomdriver]

Schrade..
Thats a TRUE polish , and it looks great! Good Job ! !

so many people think that its a quick, easy process because of some TV advertisement.
Its NOT. NOT even close. Polishing oxidized paint is a lot of work. Takes time, and muscle. A good job cannot be done by a machine in one afternoon.

Like metal polishing, you HAVE to be sterile. Change pads for every grade of polish. Use clean pads. Use progressive grades of polish. I spent a total of 4 full days polishing the stock wheels. That was after stripping the clear coat off to get to metal, and I used a die-grinder and a doz pads and buff wheels. One dirty wheel sets you back hours or even days by leaving scratches in your work.
I can only imagine doing the whole car.

Unless the cars paint is totally cracked or damaged thru to the fiber glass, it may be worth trying to polish unless a change of color is desired. Either way, paint prep or polishing, its LOTS of work and once someone does it, they NEVER EVER allow their cars finish to suffer from exposure to sunlight, acid rain, or dirt, ever again.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From joshwilson3

"I've always heard no Corvette actually came from the factory with a gel coat. It is said the "gel coat" is a myth.

There is a factory sealer on the body. But from what all I've read, that isn't an actual gel coat.

But I guess that's an endless debate. "


Gel-Coat is often confused with clear-coat and the words often mixed up. GelCoat is a clear fiber-glass resin applied to the mold before laying fiber glass, so the glass has a protective layer that can be repaired or polished without going into the structural material where the fiber is. ALL fiber-glass has some thickness of GelCoat before the glass is layered on top, otherwise fiber strands would be in the surface where they do no good.Most resins are clear or semi clear. Color may or may not be added in production.

ClearCoat is a transparent material that is applied on top of color to seal and protect the color coat. That is also designed to protect as well as enhance the look and depth of the color. Since color coats can be very thin, a good clear coat is desirable in order to have a surface that is thick enough to polish where layers are removed. That is also why we want a heavier paint,. The more color solids that it has, the thicker it will be on the car. The average production paint shop does not apply enough color to polish even one time. Multiple coats are required, OR a good clear coat. C-4's come with a heavy clear-coat on everything except the plastic or rubber bumper parts. There, a clear is present but not as thick as the fiber-glass parts otherwise it would be prone to cracking with the more flexable plastic parts.
The shadowed, cloudy or faded paint thats often seen on older C4 vettes is most often just the clear. A skilled shop can bring it back to life if the damage has not gone into the color coat.

 

[joshwilson3]

Schrade..
Thats a TRUE polish , and it looks great! Good Job ! !

so many people think that its a quick, easy process because of some TV advertisement.
Its NOT. NOT even close. Polishing oxidized paint is a lot of work. Takes time, and muscle. A good job cannot be done by a machine in one afternoon.

Like metal polishing, you HAVE to be sterile. Change pads for every grade of polish. Use clean pads. Use progressive grades of polish. I spent a total of 4 full days polishing the stock wheels. That was after stripping the clear coat off to get to metal, and I used a die-grinder and a doz pads and buff wheels. One dirty wheel sets you back hours or even days by leaving scratches in your work.
I can only imagine doing the whole car.

Unless the cars paint is totally cracked or damaged thru to the fiber glass, it may be worth trying to polish unless a change of color is desired. Either way, paint prep or polishing, its LOTS of work and once someone does it, they NEVER EVER allow their cars finish to suffer from exposure to sunlight, acid rain, or dirt, ever again.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From joshwilson3

"I've always heard no Corvette actually came from the factory with a gel coat. It is said the "gel coat" is a myth.

There is a factory sealer on the body. But from what all I've read, that isn't an actual gel coat.

But I guess that's an endless debate. "


Gel-Coat is often confused with clear-coat and the words often mixed up. GelCoat is a clear fiber-glass resin applied to the mold before laying fiber glass, so the glass has a protective layer that can be repaired or polished without going into the structural material where the fiber is. ALL fiber-glass has some thickness of GelCoat before the glass is layered on top, otherwise fiber strands would be in the surface where they do no good.Most resins are clear or semi clear. Color may or may not be added in production.

ClearCoat is a transparent material that is applied on top of color to seal and protect the color coat. That is also designed to protect as well as enhance the look and depth of the color. Since color coats can be very thin, a good clear coat is desirable in order to have a surface that is thick enough to polish where layers are removed. That is also why we want a heavier paint,. The more color solids that it has, the thicker it will be on the car. The average production paint shop does not apply enough color to polish even one time. Multiple coats are required, OR a good clear coat. C-4's come with a heavy clear-coat on everything except the plastic or rubber bumper parts. There, a clear is present but not as thick as the fiber-glass parts otherwise it would be prone to cracking with the more flexable plastic parts.
The shadowed, cloudy or faded paint thats often seen on older C4 vettes is most often just the clear. A skilled shop can bring it back to life if the damage has not gone into the color coat.

All I'm saying is there are alot of Corvette people out there who say no Corvettes ever came from the factory with gelcoat. Some of these guys have painted over 40 Vettes.

 

[gmjunkie]

Gel-Coat is often confused with clear-coat and the words often mixed up. GelCoat is a clear fiber-glass resin applied to the mold before laying fiber glass, so the glass has a protective layer that can be repaired or polished without going into the structural material where the fiber is. ALL fiber-glass has some thickness of GelCoat before the glass is layered on top, otherwise fiber strands would be in the surface where they do no good.Most resins are clear or semi clear. Color may or may not be added in production.

ClearCoat is a transparent material that is applied on top of color to seal and protect the color coat. That is also designed to protect as well as enhance the look and depth of the color. Since color coats can be very thin, a good clear coat is desirable in order to have a surface that is thick enough to polish where layers are removed. That is also why we want a heavier paint,. The more color solids that it has, the thicker it will be on the car. The average production paint shop does not apply enough color to polish even one time. Multiple coats are required, OR a good clear coat. C-4's come with a heavy clear-coat on everything except the plastic or rubber bumper parts. There, a clear is present but not as thick as the fiber-glass parts otherwise it would be prone to cracking with the more flexable plastic parts.
The shadowed, cloudy or faded paint thats often seen on older C4 vettes is most often just the clear. A skilled shop can bring it back to life if the damage has not gone into the color coat.

I don't know where you got your Automotive Refinishing Degree at,But I know a couple Lawyers that can help you get your money back!!

No Gel Coat on Corvettes.................EVER from the factory!
Base Coat Must be Clear Coated,Otherwise Ultra Violet Rays and Elements will decompose it!
Bumpers and Flexible Parts are Painted with Special Flexible Paint Additives!!

All I'm saying is there are alot of Corvette people out there who say no Corvettes ever came from the factory with gelcoat. Some of these guys have painted over 40 Vettes.

And they would be 100% Correct!

 

[boomdriver]

I don't know where you got your Automotive Refinishing Degree at,But I know a couple Lawyers that can help you get your money back!!

No Gel Coat on Corvettes.................EVER from the factory!
Base Coat Must be Clear Coated,Otherwise Ultra Violet Rays and Elements will decompose it!
Bumpers and Flexible Parts are Painted with Special Flexible Paint Additives!!




And they would be 100% Correct!

Where exactly did I claim that base coat (paint) had ANYTHING to do with fiber-glass, SMC or Epoxies????????
If you;d be so kind as to re-read my original post, I stated that FIBER GLASS construction is started with a GEL-COAT and THEN fiber-glass (cloth or mat) is layered on top of that to build in a MOLD. That post says nothing about base coat paint or the CLEAR that goes on TOP of paint.
YOU must one of those that I mentioned that CONFUSES GEL-COAT with CLEAR COAT....

They are TWO VERY different things.
GEL COAT is the SURFACE layer of FIBER GLASS that is actually the first part of EVERY new fiber glass build. CLEAR COAT is the transparent top-coat of PAINT. do YOU understand the difference? Or do you just want to HALF read a statement and make some ego based judgements with cheap insults?

Please RE READ and you might see what I was TRYING to say.

But, since I will be written off as the idiot, what is the material that you TOUCH... what is it that you FEEL or SEE that is on TOP of the multiple layers of FIBER GLASS cloth or MAT ??? NOT whats on TOP of PAINTED fiber-glass, whats the stuff called thats on TOP of bare assed, naked, newly molded fiber-glass??? Whats the stuff called thats under the paint ??

I'll help because I'm a nice guy.........

It's called the GEL-COAT. The first part of a fiber glass build. Generally sprayed in place on the mold, then a machine applys strands of "fiber-glass" or cloth or mat is placed on TOP of that COAT of resin thats been mixed with catalyst. Then more resin is applied, then more cloth. Typically 3 layers thick.

Since my automotive refinishing degree is in doubt now, I wanted YOU to straighten me out. Whats THAT material called...just for the record? What is the stuff that ends up as the surface of a fiber-glass part that normal people would apply paint to??? A polyester resin with multiple layers of cloth beneath it? AKA the GelCoat layer. If YOUR buds with an autobody degree (SAE?) of some sort told you that they paint glass strands without the benefit of being encased in a polyester resin, then run with it....

Again,. ALL fiber glass has a GelCoat layer, whether its hand laid, or pressure fit molded.

So NO Corvette ever came with GelCoat huh?
Then I'd say there were lots of hairy Corvettes running around.....somewhere. Those in my neighborhood ALL made from fiberglass, have a gelcoat under the paint.

jeeze,..
I give up.

 

[gmjunkie]

Where exactly did I claim that base coat (paint) had ANYTHING to do with fiber-glass, SMC or Epoxies????????
If you;d be so kind as to re-read my original post, I stated that FIBER GLASS construction is started with a GEL-COAT and THEN fiber-glass (cloth or mat) is layered on top of that to build in a MOLD. That post says nothing about base coat paint or the CLEAR that goes on TOP of paint.
YOU must one of those that I mentioned that CONFUSES GEL-COAT with CLEAR COAT....

They are TWO VERY different things.
GEL COAT is the SURFACE layer of FIBER GLASS that is actually the first part of EVERY new fiber glass build. CLEAR COAT is the transparent top-coat of PAINT. do YOU understand the difference? Or do you just want to HALF read a statement and make some ego based judgements with cheap insults?

Please RE READ and you might see what I was TRYING to say..

Actually,I did re-read all of your posts and you are absolutely correct,You didn't say anything about base coat!!Sorry for my mis-conception!
But you did say that the Bumpers and Plastic pieces had less Clear,Not so the plastic side fenders and bumpers have the same thickness of paint and clear,but the bumpers have additives in the clear to make the finish more flexible!

But, since I will be written off as the idiot, what is the material that you TOUCH... what is it that you FEEL or SEE that is on TOP of the multiple layers of FIBER GLASS cloth or MAT ??? NOT whats on TOP of PAINTED fiber-glass, whats the stuff called thats on TOP of bare assed, naked, newly molded fiber-glass??? Whats the stuff called thats under the paint ??

I'll help because I'm a nice guy.........

It's called the GEL-COAT. The first part of a fiber glass build. Generally sprayed in place on the mold, then a machine applys strands of "fiber-glass" or cloth or mat is placed on TOP of that COAT of resin thats been mixed with catalyst. Then more resin is applied, then more cloth. Typically 3 layers thick.

Since my automotive refinishing degree is in doubt now, I wanted YOU to straighten me out. Whats THAT material called...just for the record? What is the stuff that ends up as the surface of a fiber-glass part that normal people would apply paint to??? A polyester resin with multiple layers of cloth beneath it? AKA the GelCoat layer. If YOUR buds with an autobody degree (SAE?) of some sort told you that they paint glass strands without the benefit of being encased in a polyester resin, then run with it....

Again,. ALL fiber glass has a GelCoat layer, whether its hand laid, or pressure fit molded.

So NO Corvette ever came with GelCoat huh?
Then I'd say there were lots of hairy Corvettes running around.....somewhere. Those in my neighborhood ALL made from fiberglass, have a gelcoat under the paint.

jeeze,..
I give up.

Well,In the Old Days it was called "Polyester Resin"!
Now days with SMC and Composite beats the hell out of me whats in it,But I know Polyester Resin or Gel Coat won't stick to it unless it's SMC compatible!!! :L:L:L

No Gel Coat on Corvettes from the factory! :W:W:W

 

[Schrade]

Thanks!

It was fun for an hour. Then the fun was gone for the next 6 weeks.

Still, I would NOT trust a machine. I had no experience with one, and if I did, all it takes is one burn-thru', then you're in trouble. I'd rather strip a plug in the head, than burn thru paint that's still good ( I thought I did that with a plug once, and it is a sick feeling yup ).

 

[boomdriver]

Actually,I did re-read all of your posts and you are absolutely correct,You didn't say anything about base coat!!Sorry for my mis-conception!
But you did say that the Bumpers and Plastic pieces had less Clear,Not so the plastic side fenders and bumpers have the same thickness of paint and clear,but the bumpers have additives in the clear to make the finish more flexible! Yes I did leave bumpers unfinished because getting into flex for bumper skins was getting off target too much and I figure most knew about that anyway. Bumper skins are either super hard paint, OR its typical paint shot full of flex so the dont peel the first time a dead birb bounces off the bumper.
Chrome was so much easier to keep clean....I mean blood would just rinse right off and no scratches.,..now paint. whats the world coming to?

Well,In the Old Days it was called "Polyester Resin"!
Now days with SMC and Composite beats the hell out of me whats in it,But I know Polyester Resin or Gel Coat won't stick to it unless it's SMC compatible!!! :L:L:L >thats where hi press 2 side mold come in AND get some time in the shop OVEN to cure the mix is SMC and fiber glass polyester.The resins are used as a build material for form new pieces. Epoxies are used to join those parts under hi pressure.

><
No Gel Coat on Corvettes ^from the factory! :W:W:W

paint
^
/
Thank you for re-reading and understanding that I was explaining about gel-coat as the first resin material to go on the mold.....or commonly called GEL COAT.
Got a car with no gel coat? It needs a hair cut!

I only pass along FACTs. Useful, accurate facts seem to annoy people a right bit faster, so thats why I stick to the truth...and nuthin less.

Glad that was crealed up.
Would not want to see someone trying to spray gel on top of their nice new candy apple red base color....

They'd Blame SCHRADE !~

 

[Schrade]

They'd Blame SCHRADE !~

Yup - you know what they say about a good Schrade-goat UH HuH

 

[CGM's1988vette]

Sorry for the delayed thanks as I did read your info as soon as you posted and greatly appreciate it. I will checkout MACCO, but as I am out of a job $$ is tight now.

I'm also doing this and CAN tell you this much...
deep sanding is a no-no because you can easily end up with "waves" in the surface from the fiber-glass or epoxie body.

Applying paint over paint leads to a thickness thats unacceptable and will crack and peel.
Edges are especially susceptable and any mask or taped edges WILL peel sooner or later.

To do it RIGHT and get a long lasting, nice finish,

remove everything that you possibly can. weather strip, body mouldings, lite housings..etc. ANYWHERE that you'd tape off and make an edge...
Use chemical stripper. I am NO EXPERT in this, but I do know that removing the old paint down to the gel-coat allows the new color the flexibility and adhesion to last. When paint gets too thick, it cracks and peels. If it has orange peel, it has to be deeply polished out and to have a new color coat thick enough for that, will be TOO thick on top of old paint. You need 3 wet coats of color and to have enough to rub out even once.... a couple clear coats on top of that. Don;t fall into the "intergrated clear-coat" BS...thats all that is, BS. Mixing color with clear makes color. period.

Its pointless to put nice paint on top of bad paint.

I got an est of $450 @ Macco to completely strip down to the glass.
The process includes all the removal, and using a neutalizer when its all done.
I have no choice. Mines already been repainted, so this time I gotta strip. Besides, thats the ONLY way to change color and do it right. If you change color and don;t strip, every ding shows thru and every scratch shows the old paint layer.

Paint quality....see the WEIGHT of the paint. The heavier it is, the more solids in the color and the thicker and tougher the color. The more you can polish it.

remember, silver eats itself in time because it reflects within itself. UV rays are many times more distructive to silvers.

prep time...for the weekend warrior....4 weeks. Stripping will take a weekend at least, then the clean up, and then you have to take the car apart. remove door seals, lite boxes, all the mouldings...

Sure, you CAN mask it off and tape over the black moulding, but that leaves an exposed paint edge....

scuffing the paint to make a bondable surface will work with todays paints. Thats how Earl Shieb does it........



I'm NOT trying to make this seem difficult or impossible,....its a LOT of work to do right. If the car is to be sold, mask things off and scuff away. If you plan on looking at it for the next few yrs...do it right, especially if you have the time. Its NOT about how much money you put into the project....painting is 100% about the prep...the time you put into it.

BTW..I got my complete cabin weather strip 7 piece set that is perfect, from Gulf Coast corvette in Houston. I think it was around $499..... Do that after paint so the rubber does not get painted or over sprayed and you can paint the body edges under the weather strip. No exposed edges...

Keep this thought in mind...the paints today are like your skin. If YOU do not have edges somewhere, then the skin can;t peel away.