...carbureted LS6 Gen III...??

[Stan's Customs]

Any one ever hear of a LS364/440...

...supposed to be the same block as the LS family with the LS6 heads and an intake for a carburetor...

Questions from other members : LS6 5.7L GEN 111 CORVETTE ENGINEItem number: 8021389831

Question & Answer Answered On

Q:I tried cut and paste... too blurry. Can you email me an enlarge copy? Which LS6 engine is this? The CTS engine, 02-04 vette or older vette engine? Chris (101 all positive feedbacks)Dec-16-05

A:thank you for your email. i have sent to you the attachment of the LS6

Q:i cant read your brochet picture. can you send me the gm part # so i can look it up to see what im buying . thanks Dec-11-05

A:thank you for your email. all you have to do is copy the picture and paste it to microsoft word. you can make the picture any size. the part number is #12578104. i also have the new LS364/440 AVAILABLE. SAME BLOCK AS THE LS FAMILY WITH LS6 CYL HEADS AND INTAKE FOR A CARBURATOR. CALL MARK @ 800-263-0278 FOR SHIPPING DETAILS.

Ask seller a question

Rather obscure ...found in questions regarding a new LS6 crate engine...on E-Bay, shown above.

This is news to me ...anyone have any knowledge of such a package??

Stan...

 

[bossvette]

I remember seeing a write up about an aftermarket set-up to use a Carb on a LS1 it included a ignition computer and wire harness I can't remember if it was Edelbrock or Accel that makes it though.
It can be done but why bother the EFI is so much more efficient.

 

[John Mcgraw]

Stan,
There are setups out there to convert a LSx engine to carb, and MSD ignition.

I can't for the life of me, figure why anyone would do this other than because they were intimidated by the electronic engine management.

The stock engine management system will yeild great performance, great fuel economy, and great reliability. They are truly plug-and-play systems, and they constantly adjust themselves for changing conditions. Once the PCM is reprogramed to meet your needs, then you never need to mess with it again.
I have become a huge fan of the LSx engine, and doubt that I will ever build another smallblock engine again except for a restoration. My 59 will scare the poop out of me, and it is only a stock LS1. The 65, with it's warmed up LS2 is going to be a handfull!

Regards, John McGraw

 

[Stan's Customs]

I know that's exactly right John......

However I've built some very fast carbureted street cars, quite at home in that field...and most dyno comparisons in high performance engines I have ever seen..carbureted engines made the most horsepower all other things being equal.

...and for a long time the carbureted engines were cheaper...so I stuck with them on that account. That isn't true any more.....they are higher with good forged parts and top notch heads.

...another thing ...you are right I don't know as much about the fuel injection management systems as carburetion, but I'm not intimidated, I'm just behind since I don't do the hands on mechanic work like I used to.....but I'm getting up up to speed on that for this "last" project . I'm just retired from the hands on facet of the business.

Like everyone I have several fuel injected vehicles...and wouldn't have anything else for daily driving....and know all the advantages of owning them.

Now...I'm sure it looks like I'm fighting the use of these engines on my C1....and I guess that's true. But not for the reasons you might think.

To avoid the risk of offending anyone...let me first say I have never seen better quality workmanship and engineering than you have done on your cars, and a few others on this forum...and am absolutely "not" making light of those fine examples of workmanship, not even minutely..! I think there are none better in the "nation"...period. On top of that ...because of the fine workmanship exibited, I reall value the advice that you and others have helped me with....please don't stop.

Having said that you know I'm a little concerened about perserving the nostalgic theme of my old C1..in appearance only.......but there is another thing, I want to have a "unique" car in all aspects.

In the area where I live there are 5 salvage yards...within 5 miles of me and 15 within 20 miles. Every junk yard mechanic...has one of these engines in everything from daily driven 80's beater pickups , old camaros, low riders...you name it. Then when there is a local car show with some pretty nice basic budget built street rods...seems like they nearly all have these engines......Around here that's kinda normal....even though some are just cobbled in....

That's a real problem for me .......even though it may still be the "right" choice.

I'm looking for a combination ...that makes you suck wind when you raise the hood...like tr-powers, 2 fours, or super chargers with plenty chrome used to do.....for nostalgia... "and" bridge the gap in technology for driveability.

The big thing is that it be "one of a kind" in my neighborhood...totally!

I know you guys have spent countless hours formulating what you have done your cars...if you have any ideas that would help me deal with this dilemma, I'm all ears. I've spent months on this and am "not happy" with any build plan I've considered...


...Stan

 

[Tyler Townsley]

If you want to go efi on an older motor use an old hilborn and have it converted, you might have to get creative with the intake runners and filter but it could be done. Hilborn makes a really nice runner/filter setup but it is a bit pricy. I am going that way on both a sb and a bb l88 clone. I will be using this for control of fuel and spark.

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

Tyler

 

[motorman]

Stan,
There are setups out there to convert a LSx engine to carb, and MSD ignition.

I can't for the life of me, figure why anyone would do this other than because they were intimidated by the electronic engine management.

The stock engine management system will yeild great performance, great fuel economy, and great reliability. They are truly plug-and-play systems, and they constantly adjust themselves for changing conditions. Once the PCM is reprogramed to meet your needs, then you never need to mess with it again.
I have become a huge fan of the LSx engine, and doubt that I will ever build another smallblock engine again except for a restoration. My 59 will scare the poop out of me, and it is only a stock LS1. The 65, with it's warmed up LS2 is going to be a handfull!

Regards, John McGraw

the one with the carb will make more HP because of the air flow. the LS-2 make 400 with FI but makes 440 with a carb

 

[John Mcgraw]

Clem,
I know you are correct on that regard, but I have finally reached a point in my life where raw horsepower is not the only thing that I look at anymore. There are also a lot of modifiactions that can be made to the injected engine to make pore power like larger throttle body, bigger injectors, better cam, ect, but most of these modifications affect driveability as well.
It is real nice to get in a car, no matter what the weather is, and have it start right up and idle like a champ. I can take off on a 500 mile trip and not have to worry about the drivetrain, and knock down almost 25 mpg to boot!
The 59 has way more torque and horsepower than I could ever hope to put to use, and will smoke the tires at any speed below about 30 mph, so after all is said and done, it is mostly about the gee whiz factor that Stan talks about. I am thinking about putting a polished Magnacharger on the LS2, even though I know that the stock engine will put out more than enough to destroy the rear tires. Stan is right, that a lot of what we do on these type of cars is to be the only one in town with a particular combination, and that I why I looked so hard at a LS7. I am glad that I decided not to go that path, since I just don't think the support will be there for the LS7 for another year or so, and the LS2 was a good option.

The reliability smooth power, and great fuel economy, still tips the scale for me toward a stock LSx engine. I can dress it up and change the looks of it to get the wow factor, but I will probably stay with these engines for the forseeable future. I built nothing but Smallblock Chevy engines for the last 35 years, but I am now a beliver in the "new smallblock".


Regards, John McGraw

 

[Stan's Customs]

The "new smallblock" is indeed what GM should have done before they let the foreign manufacturers have a foothold in the market. I guess better late than never...wish they had approached the issue during the 80's instead of the recirculation reburn exaust systems..... I guess that's when I got into the nostalgia vein ...disgusted with Detroit's puny efforts.....at least compared to the high tech Japs etc...

These new engines are a marvel and smoothhhhh...especially for a hot rod.....which I guess is what a stock C1 really is , at least compared to the new Corvettes.

They are a 50's steering ..with buckboard suspension and a plain old hot rod small block motor....I still get a rush when I walk upon a sharp one. When I get to thinking about it...I guess that's what they mean to me....a toy from the past. I have about decided that that's what I really love, makes me feel a little younger...and carries me back in time when that young girl had to scoot over so I could shift that 4 speed.... and take that grin off that challenger in the adjoining lane.

I bid on a 1996 Corvette at the Dallas Auto Auction two weeks ago...Nice car with a few too many miles..138K. Slick interior and near flawless body...ran perfect. I pulled off at $8400, it sold for $8700. Woke me up I guess...I wasn't even dissappointed ...almost relieved in fact. I guess I'm worried that if I built my '61 like that, it would have the same effect.......

Looks like I have come full circle back to where I strarted....just thinking about front dics brakes...Vintage air conditioning for Texas heat, and maybe upgrade the motor to an LT1 350....

.....a "1970" LT1 350 that is...angle plug 2.02 heads, forged steel crank, 4 bolt block, good rods..forged pistons, aluminum intake....just a basic stock motor..."in those days"... but fun....heh heh.

....and of course slick and shiny.

But that's today...in the morningI may be thinking different..heh heh!

Stan...

 

[JohnZ]

Here's another approach with the "gee-whiz" factor and modern-day reliability/driveability - friend of mine's GS replica with a GM 385 fast-burn crate motor, with what appears to be the GS Weber cross-ram setup.

The 45DCOE Webers are "dry", and serve only as throttle bodies - the fuel lines are fake. The Moon cross-ram manifold has bungs welded in the bottom of each runner for injectors (which are invisible), and the F.A.S.T. ECU setup. You can just see the pressure regulator for the fuel rail next to the distributor, and the throttle position sensor is hidden on the other side. No fiddling with main jets, idle jets, emulsion tubes, air correction jets, etc. - just runs like gangbusters .

 

[Stan's Customs]

That "is" a new approach for the Gee Whiz factor John. Pretty ingenious......

Food for thought ... thanks for the input...

....Stan

 

[bossvette]

John
do you have any other pictures of that engine, I'm interested how he rigged the early valve covers on a late model block ie: oil fill and PCV etc. I have always liked the early finned valve covers.

 

[JohnZ]

It has center-bolt to side-bolt adapter plates under the valve covers, and oil fill is done through the breathers on the cross-vent tube between the front of the valve covers. There aren't a lot of options for ways to do it with a cross-ram setup, so it was done like the race cars were done.

Here's another one (Traco cross-ram in a Cheetah) that's done the same way - you can see the oil fill standpipe just behind the fuel pressure gauge:

 

[newbe60]

here's the ls-1 article

http://superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/induction_poweradders/0505sc_conversion/

 

[Stan's Customs]

Thanks newbe...thats the information I wanted to look at. I talked to a guy a couple of days ago that had used a carb on a LS1...lotsa' power he said but typcial carbureted fuel mileage. He didn't seeem real thrilled one way or the other......seemed like it didn't act just like he wanted unless he had the pedal on the floor, then it would scoot.

I'm going to get a little better educated on the matter. I imagine that John McGraw's approach is the skinny on the situation though..and cheaper to do in stock form. Either way you get a wrecker if you have trouble on the road...no roadside repairs with either of these things, so probably no particular advantage to the carb since you still have an ECM and 8 coils....regarding breakdown repairs..likely Gm stuff is more reliable and easier to get parts for....but the horsepower is tempting for some applications.


Thanks for the source...Stan..

 

[motorman]

Clem,
I know you are correct on that regard, but I have finally reached a point in my life where raw horsepower is not the only thing that I look at anymore. There are also a lot of modifiactions that can be made to the injected engine to make pore power like larger throttle body, bigger injectors, better cam, ect, but most of these modifications affect driveability as well.
It is real nice to get in a car, no matter what the weather is, and have it start right up and idle like a champ. I can take off on a 500 mile trip and not have to worry about the drivetrain, and knock down almost 25 mpg to boot!
The 59 has way more torque and horsepower than I could ever hope to put to use, and will smoke the tires at any speed below about 30 mph, so after all is said and done, it is mostly about the gee whiz factor that Stan talks about. I am thinking about putting a polished Magnacharger on the LS2, even though I know that the stock engine will put out more than enough to destroy the rear tires. Stan is right, that a lot of what we do on these type of cars is to be the only one in town with a particular combination, and that I why I looked so hard at a LS7. I am glad that I decided not to go that path, since I just don't think the support will be there for the LS7 for another year or so, and the LS2 was a good option.

The reliability smooth power, and great fuel economy, still tips the scale for me toward a stock LSx engine. I can dress it up and change the looks of it to get the wow factor, but I will probably stay with these engines for the forseeable future. I built nothing but Smallblock Chevy engines for the last 35 years, but I am now a beliver in the "new smallblock".


Regards, John McGraw

you do not have to sell me on FI as i have had 3 C-5s and a C-6. a friend has a 427 SBC in his C-4 with edelbrock FI and it runs great and get good milage

 

[Stan's Customs]

Thats good to know Clem..

I'm surprised that the Edlebrock aftermarket FI set up did any better than a good carb...especially on a big inch small block. I've had a couple of after market set ups like Holley Projection, that I wound up getting rid of....

I had considered one of the little "big " motors...they are simple and run well...I discounted that idea because of perceived poor fuel mileage mostly, I like their other attributes ...

 

[John Mcgraw]

Stan,
Almost any fuel injection system can offer great driveability and good fuel economy, but many do not, especially open-loop systems. In an open loop system, the skill of the tuner pretty much sets the performance level and the economy. The systems come with some pre-configured air/fuel tables, and they can get you pretty close, but for optimum system performance, you need to tweak the tables to match your engine modifications just like you would with a carbureator system. In closed-loop systems, even though the PCM is looking at pretty much the same air/fuel tables, that is only a starting point, and then the 02 sensors take over and fine tune the mixture as well as the PCM changing the advance profile to keep the engine out of detonation. A closed\loop system will almost always offer greater driveability and fuel economy, while a Open-loop system will offer very high performance if properly tweaked. The maps can be adjusted on both systems, and you can adjust the desired final settings the the PCM tries to arrive at on the closed-loop system as well, but it is usually a more complex process since you not only have to build new F/A maps, but you also have to adjust the table that allows adjustment based on input from the O2 sensor. THe really nice thing is that once it is dialed in on either system, it will usually run well forever unless the MAF or some other component fails. The real advantage of the GM closed-loop system is that it has unsurpassed diagnostics onboard to make troubleshooting much easier. The hardcore racers, use open loop systems almost exclusively since it is much easier to set up a final map that will not be messed up by input from the O2 sensor. Obviously, idle quality and fuel economy are not high on the priority list for such an engine, but for a street driven car, most would agree that a closed-loop system is a better choice.
John Hinkley's pics of the Weber look-alike system is only the tip of the iceberg. The street rod guys are making all sorts of elecronic fuel injection systems, including old Hilborn systems reworked to electronic, direct port fuel injection, and multiple Stromberg 97's converted as well. A guy can now build a nostalgia streetrod and never give up the advantages of modern injection.
Regards, John McGraw

 

[newbe60]

here's another nice set-up

they have a ram jet just for early vettes for the zz383 (for our hood clearance problem)
http://www.azspeed-marine.com/sudrtopinsy.html

expensive but all gm parts and will bolt on top of the zz383 so you have the torque of the 383 and the EFI of GM

 

[Stan's Customs]

Thanks John...That does lend some clarity to the issue....Your broad knowledge base is remarkable..thank you again.

I have been considering a whole new approach, like the Dawson frame etc....for my project...one factor is the extreme cost. I just really wasn't prepared for every little thing to cost $1500. But,I can't justify any expense at all unless the final project is top notch...regardless of the cost.

I guess I'll just have to "Take a deep seat and get a far away look in my eye"...to quote another old friend of mine that was a street racer to the end. Letting the end result justify the cost...

That may make this 2 year project last 5 years...and I think the time is what I worry about more than the money.

Stan..

 

[Stan's Customs]

Roger that newbie...

I talked to Arizona Marine about their set up.. The low rise FI they sell for nostalgia type streeters is nearly as high as I can buy the Crate GM Performance Ram Jet engine, ECM and Injection set up for. When I mentioned this to him ..he said that they could convert the new Ram Jet Intake to a low profile intake ...for about $950.

That's a whole lot better deal than just buying their intake. Only thing is, the GM Ram Jet block is 2 bolt and the crank is cast..so its not what I'd really like for a base engine. Truthfully.... I know that really would be alright...just isn't what I'd be proud of....Picky I guess..

~Stan