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Carlisle: C6 dyno'd and my impressions

S

sothpaw

Guest
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to share my Carslile experiences with all of you.

I went only on Friday and spent the late morning (when I got there) and early afternoon looking at the C6 and watching it be dyno'd.

Dyno impressions:

First, let me say, the C6 is one hell of a quiet car. You all wanted to hear what it would sound like when you turn the key? Well, here it is:____

Even on the dyno, you could hardly hear it until it was over 3000 rpm.

The numbers: 347 rwhp, 349 rwtq. The power curve is not flat at high rpm though, it peaks at maybe 6000 rpm with the high area between 5500 and 6500. This was Chip Miller's son's car, and he is sending it to Callaway for a make over, goal is for a 10 s car in the 1/4 mi. They will also test at the drag strip somewhere soon...

Contrast that to the Z06, which was also stock and dyno'd just minutes earlier (there was 1 C3 between them that made 266 rwhp, 330 rwtq):
360 rwhp, 347 rwtq. SUPER FLAT HP CURVE UP HIGH. It was completely flat at 360 rwhp from 5200 rpm to 6600 rpm. Amazing.

Needless to say, there were some disappointed folks there, no cheers. I expected a little less from the C5 Z06, perhaps that was a strong example. I expected a flatter Hp curve at the top end of the C6--my heads cam C4 is flat up top, but only from 5800 to 64xx (rev limited).

C6 looks/feel impressions:

I must have been too early for Rob on Friday--I did not see him at the EGR tent. Dave Hill entered the tent and walked right by me. This was around 11:00. Last year he actually interupted a conversation I was having with Harlan Charles. Like Rob says, these guys are busy, they have a job to do; I respect them for that and try not to waste their time. I talked with Harlan just briefly and he seemed to say that things went smoothly with the C6 plant change over at Bowling green. I did notice that the GM guys tended to talk amongst themselves a lot, just a natural tendency.

C6 Exterior:
The first thing that comes to mind is: more angular, more agressive, more racy on the exterior. But very C5. Can't avoid that. I like the rear end, I think it is a little better, more rounded. But not that different than C5--over at the Kerbeck corner, they had a C6 and C5 with the rear facias adjacent, and it was plainly obvious that it's no radical departure.

I don't like the front, but it's less noticiable in pictures than in person. Still looks like it's smiling at me or something, I don't like that grill. I also like the head lights on the Callaway C12 much better than the C6 lights, if they had to go the fixed route.

C5's profile (side view) was always it's strong suite. Same with C6. Similar design, more angular. I really see what they mean by F-22 influence. I don't thing it's necessarily better than C5, just more sporty.

I did not like the experimental gun-metal wheels shown on the black car, but the stock C6 wheel is very, very nice. The best yet, except maybe the ZR1 5 spoke.

C6 interior

I hate the steering wheel. But I kept negative comments to myself in that tent, I'm sure they've heard it before. I also hate the driver's door--no handle to get out, you have to use this electonic switch. I couldn't get out at first!!!

The feel of the seat is better than C5--tighter, like C4. Leather is nicer than either C5 or C4, nice and couchy.

Interior materials--I was expecting to be wow'd, but I was not. I ran my fingers over the dash, seats, shifter, console, driver center. Nicer than plastic, but I would say equal to the feel of the C4 dash (mine is 1993) over the passenger side.

Shifter--nice looking. But I can't feel a short-throw difference between this and C5, as I could when C5 came out vs C4. Clutch is also VERY SOFT, not to my liking, but everybody's different.

Price

Harlan said Coupes are around 44 base and 'verts 52 base. There was not one 'vert at Carslile that I saw, and very few automatics, actually, just 2 that I saw (one at engr. tent, one at Kerbeck). Nevertheless, with options, Kerbeck wanted around 52k for the coupes. A definite price jump.
 
Nice write up. The hp and tq numbers will go up some once the cars get nice and broken in, but I would think with more cubes, that the tq would be better and flatter.
 
Something doesn't make sense on the Z06 numbers. The C6 dynoed at 347RWHP which comes out to about a 13.25% transmission loss, which is close to the 15% typical for manual transmissions. The loss on the Z06 tranny is only about 10%. If I factor the similar 13% from the C6 the HP number comes out to be ~415 at the crank. How stock was this Z06? Even same basic bolt-ons doesn't make for a fair comparison.

Leon
 
Andy,

Nice write-up. I was there at the GM Tent right around 1:00pm so I missed you. I arrived late in the morning around 11:00am, met several other CAC members, and immediately left to go to lunch with them.

I agree with you regarding the sound of the C6. If I had to find fault with the car, it would be the overall sound of it. Too quiet for me.

Personally, I get an extreme amount of joy out of hearing the engine and exhaust working together. When I drive my own Vette, I NEVER listen to the radio unless I'm going on extremely long trips and cruising on the highway in 6th gear. Other than that, the radio stays off. The sound of the engine and exhaust while running through the gears is too intoxicating to be....disturbed by a radio.

When Dwayne Fenton took me for a ride in the C6 he was driving during our CruiseFest this past May, my first impression was that it was just too quiet. I had the same complaint with the base model C5. However, I've never been inside a Z06 other than a year ago, when some lame salesman took me for a 2 minute test drive around the block of the dealership over a pothole-infested dirt road (I have yet to figure out the point of that test drive other than trying to impress me with the ride quality of the Z06 over my own Vette...). I don't even think the Z06 went past 2,000 rpm.

My belief is that the Z06 is more....robust and enjoyable to my ears.

Shortly after 9/11, I took a ride to the Pentagon to see the destruction caused by the retards across the water. As I got out of my car, I heard a distant roar, and looked across the roadway to see a Yellow Z06 accelerating fast around a hairpin exit ramp. From what I could see, the exhaust looked stock out the back, so again, I assume the Z06 sounds more....healthy. :D

Hopefully, the next generation Z06 will sound just as healthy, if not more so.

My understanding is that the C5 and C6 exhaust sound has been engineered in such a way to make both models meet European sound regulations. I keep meaning to confirm this with GM Engineers, but I keep forgetting to ask the question when given the chance.

If this is in fact, the case, then I would have to ask, how do cars such as the Ferrari 360 Modena, Aston Martin Vanquish, various high performance Porsches, etc., get away with the exhaust-noise levels they reach at lower rpms?

In the area that I live in, there are tons of Ferraris, Aston Martins, a few Lamborghini Diablos and other high-end sports cars running around here. Ferrari of Washington is practically in my backyard, and I've seen several brand-new Ferrari Modenas (window sticker in-tact) accelerating from a stop light with quite a roar. These sports cars are not limited to US-only sales, and are in fact, sold in Europe. So I don't understand how they're able to get away with it, and the Corvette's exhaust is forced to be muffled?
 
Rob said:
...I don't understand how they're able to get away with it, and the Corvette's exhaust is forced to be muffled?
They, the builders, are afraid people will want to buy more Corvettes if they were louder?? Or maybe there are different regulations for domestic (read European) and import??
 
Rob,

Thanks for the Reply! Sorry I missed you. Caught you last year though, remember? We talked a little before Dave Hill's speech on the 2004's. You took a lot of notes!!

Yes, I agree with you, too me, a sports car should be a little loud. That is the one thing I must admire...gulp... about Mustangs.

My theory is this: As much as you and I might not like it, Corvette's demographic is older than we are. They like it a little more Cadallac. To me, this explains the quite car and the super soft clutch. I can't blame the design team for catering to there main audience.

I look at the bright side--my wife would LOVE it if my Corvette was that quite. She hates mine now that I have the Power Effects exhaust installed.

You all should hear her description of what it is like to ride in my Corvette--keep in mind, at 5'0 she can't really see over the dash. "I may as well be in a rocket ship going to the moon--I can't see anything but the dash, it's loud and noisy, there are sudden turns...".

She is really and "Indoor" girl.
 
sothpaw said:
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to share my Carslile experiences with all of you.

I went only on Friday and spent the late morning (when I got there) and early afternoon looking at the C6 and watching it be dyno'd.

Dyno impressions:

First, let me say, the C6 is one hell of a quiet car. You all wanted to hear what it would sound like when you turn the key? Well, here it is:____

Even on the dyno, you could hardly hear it until it was over 3000 rpm.

The numbers: 347 rwhp, 349 rwtq. The power curve is not flat at high rpm though, it peaks at maybe 6000 rpm with the high area between 5500 and 6500. This was Chip Miller's son's car, and he is sending it to Callaway for a make over, goal is for a 10 s car in the 1/4 mi. They will also test at the drag strip somewhere soon...

Contrast that to the Z06, which was also stock and dyno'd just minutes earlier (there was 1 C3 between them that made 266 rwhp, 330 rwtq):
360 rwhp, 347 rwtq. SUPER FLAT HP CURVE UP HIGH. It was completely flat at 360 rwhp from 5200 rpm to 6600 rpm. Amazing.

Needless to say, there were some disappointed folks there, no cheers. I expected a little less from the C5 Z06, perhaps that was a strong example. I expected a flatter Hp curve at the top end of the C6--my heads cam C4 is flat up top, but only from 5800 to 64xx (rev limited).
Nice write-up :m

Here is a bit more on the subject: http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54864 :upthumbs
 
sothpaw said:
C6 interior

I also hate the driver's door--no handle to get out, you have to use this electonic switch. I couldn't get out at first!!!
Now that sux big time, if you lose electricity you're friggin trapped ? WTF
 
There is a pull cable by the driver's door if power is lost so that you can exit the vehicle.

If power is lost and you need to enter the vehicle there is a key hole just above the rear license plate that you can use to open the hatch. Inside are manual pull cables for the driver's door and the gas filler door.

Leon
 
Is it too early to ask if someone has already put a catback system on their C6?:L:L:L
 
Crazyhorse said:
Now that sux big time, if you lose electricity you're friggin trapped ? WTF
I would take that a sign from God that I am not to get out of the car, and that He wants me to go drive it some more. Who am I to argue with the Almighty?
;LOL


Seriously, very nice write up, Sothpaw. Very informative. I find myself growing impatient to see one in person.
:beer
-Patrick
 
Edmond said:
Is it too early to ask if someone has already put a catback system on their C6?:L:L:L
Thats what I am talking about.

1st mod=Exhaust
2nd mod=Air filter
3rd mod=gears
4th mod=heads & cam
 
Crazyhorse said:
Now that sux big time, if you lose electricity you're friggin trapped ? WTF
I believe there is a manual release down at the bottom of the doors.

vettepilot
 
Gorgon said:
Something doesn't make sense on the Z06 numbers. The C6 dynoed at 347RWHP which comes out to about a 13.25% transmission loss, which is close to the 15% typical for manual transmissions. The loss on the Z06 tranny is only about 10%. If I factor the similar 13% from the C6 the HP number comes out to be ~415 at the crank. How stock was this Z06? Even same basic bolt-ons doesn't make for a fair comparison.

Leon
Generally, powertrain parasitic loss for C5 manuals has been 15% and that's more than just the trans, that's trans, axle, rear bearings and the tire/roller interface.

347/.84= 408hp which is right were the LS2 should be and, in this case, a really good running LS2

The Z06, if it's stock (which it might not have been) at 360/ .85 = 423 which is, clearly, way high for an engine in production trim.

The big enablers of the LS2's better torque curve are 20 more cubic inches, 31% reduction in intake restriction, the 2001 LS6 (385-hp) cam, heads and valve train, and a 10% reduction in exhaust restriction.
 
So Hib, what do think the increase in HP would be if you throw an 03 LS6 cam in a LS2?
 
Hib Halverson said:
The big enablers of the LS2's better torque curve are 20 more cubic inches, 31% reduction in intake restriction, the 2001 LS6 (385-hp) cam, heads and valve train, and a 10% reduction in exhaust restriction.

Hib,

Why would they use the 01' Z06 cam, heads and valve train? Since the 02'-04' cam was more aggressive and the heads flowed more, wouldn't they have been a more logical choice? Wouldn't that increase the power by at least 10%?

Or are they going to do classic GM and put the 02'-04' Z06 cam and heads on the 2006 C6? :L
 
It's not a logical choice becuase the LS2 is also used with an automatic transmission. 400 lbs of torque is already 25 lbs/ft more than the L65 auto can handle. An LS2 with the late LS6 cam and valves would have the motor at 410-415hp. GM needs an automatic with the base engine, hence the use of the early LS6 cam. The L65 is already torque managed to work with 400lbs ft. Another reason is that if they use the 385hp cam, GM could get by without the cost of the exotic and expensive hollow stem intake valves and the NAK-filled exhausts.

The LS7 is going to be a 24-valve engine. It's possible they might use the LS6 profile but they might use something else.

All LS6 heads are the same. It's only the cam and valves that differ between MY01 and MY02-04.
 
The C6 steering wheel is horrible....it belongs in a chevy truck. Hopefully in 2006 they will change it with enough feedback...
 
Hib,

With the inevitable modifications that people will add onto their C6's, what is the maximum torque and horsepower they can get to without breaking stuff?
 

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