Definition of "clean"

[matthud]

Someone inspected a car for me and told me the car wasn't "clean." What exactly designates a car clean. I was looking at a 69 numbers matching 427 4-speed coupe. I was aware that the car needed exhaust. But after seeing the car he told me it wasnt clean and it would require a restoration. He said $15K was pushing the maximum of what the car was worth in its condition. The seller is asking $22K for the car.

 

[Mac]

Unfortunately, there is no good clear definition of "clean" per se.

My definition of a "clean" car has very little to do with dirt, if you know what I mean. "Clean" to me means there's no visible rust or obvious repairs/modifications to the frame. I suspect your inspector means something similar but that's just my guess.

That being said, if your inspector feels the car is worth $15K, it can't be in too bad of shape. Talk to him, find out what he feels needs to be addressed. This will put you in a better position to talk to the seller about the price.

Although many people put great emphasis on the "numbers matching" thing, I've yet to see a good definition of "numbers matching" either. :L

Good luck and remember- be sure it's the right car for you.

-Mac

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

I've yet to see a good definition of "numbers matching" either. :L

I've heard lots of bad definitions, how we trade if you ever find a good one?

 

[BarryK]

I've lost all faith in "numbers matching"! Who is to say that the block wasn't decked and restamped? You can order just about any part from catalogs and specify what date you want them to stamp on it. So many people are "creating" numbers matching cars that unless you are the orginal owner you just can't know for sure what you are buying. Even if you are the original owner and trying to sell, the buyer doesn't know you or know you aren't playing the same games as so many others.
I've learned to ask is it the "original motor" as opposed to just asking is it "numbers matching"

 

[matthud]

That being said, if your inspector feels the car is worth $15K, it can't be in too bad of shape. Talk to him, find out what he feels needs to be addressed. This will put you in a better position to talk to the seller about the price.
-Mac

Isn't $15K a little low of a maximum price to pay for this car? I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out why he didn't think it should be worth more than 10 let alone 15, when the seller thinks its worth 23. How can two opinions of the same car be so far apart

 

[Erik S. Klein]

I've lost all faith in "numbers matching"! Who is to say that the block wasn't decked and restamped? You can order just about any part from catalogs and specify what date you want them to stamp on it. So many people are "creating" numbers matching cars that unless you are the orginal owner you just can't know for sure what you are buying. Even if you are the original owner and trying to sell, the buyer doesn't know you or know you aren't playing the same games as so many others.
I've learned to ask is it the "original motor" as opposed to just asking is it "numbers matching"

That is a better question to ask.

I do know that the bulk of the NCRS judges can spot a restamped or repro part at ten paces without their glasses. . .

A true numbers matching car has the correct VIN and other numbers (casting, date code, etc.) on all of the appropriate parts (engine, frame, body, etc.) and has correctly date stamped and coded parts wherever else is appropriate. I.e. the AC will be a proper unit with a date code sometime before the car was delivered within a certain timeframe.

NCRS judges look at all of this and more.

I'm sure someone can explain it better, but the takeaway from this is that if you care about an NCRS quality car, get an NCRS inspector on it before you buy. If not, enjoy what you buy anyway!

 

[Ken]

Okay, bear with me - I'm not being sarcastic here...

clean

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clean (klēn) adjective
clean·er, clean·est
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Free from dirt, stain, or impurities; unsoiled.
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a. Free from foreign matter or pollution; unadulterated: clean air; clean drinking water. b. Not infected: a clean wound.
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3.​

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a. Producing relatively little pollution: a clean fuel; a cleaner, more efficient engine. b. Producing relatively little radioactive fallout or contamination: a clean nuclear bomb.
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4.​

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Having no imperfections or blemishes; regular: a clean, straight line.
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5.​

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Free from clumsiness; deft; adroit: a clean throw.
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6.​

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Devoid of restrictions or encumbrances: a clean bill of health.
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Thorough; complete: a clean getaway.
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8.​

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Having few alterations or corrections; legible: clean manuscript.
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9.​

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Blank: a clean page.
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10.​

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a. Morally pure; virtuous: led a clean life. b. Having no marks of discredit or offense: a clean voting record.
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Fit for all readers, listeners, or audiences; not ribald or obscene: a clean joke.
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Honest or fair: a clean fighter; a clean competition.
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Slang. a. Not carrying concealed weapons or drugs. b. Free from narcotics addiction. c. Innocent of a suspected crime.
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adverb
cleaner, cleanest

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So as to be unsoiled: wash the dishes clean.
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In a fair manner: played the game clean.
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3.​

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In a clean or nonpolluting manner: a fuel that burns clean.
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4.​

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Informal. Entirely; wholly: clean forgot the appointment.
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verb
cleaned, clean·ing, cleans


verb, transitive

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1.​

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To rid of dirt, rubbish, or impurities: clean a room; clean a suit.
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2.​

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To get rid of (impurities or dirt, for example); remove: cleaned up the trash; cleaned off the stains.
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3.​

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To prepare (fowl or other food) for cooking, as by removing the entrails or fat.
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To remove the contents from; empty: cleaned my plate.
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verb, intransitive
To undergo or perform an act of cleaning.
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— phrasal verb.​

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clean out

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1.​

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To rid of dirt, rubbish, or impurities.
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To empty of contents or occupants.
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3.​

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Informal. To drive or force out: cleaned out the incompetent workers.
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4.​

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Slang. To deprive completely of money or material wealth: The robbery cleaned us out.
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clean up​

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1.​

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To make clean or orderly.
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2.​

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To make oneself clean, neat, or presentable.
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3.​

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To dispose of; settle: cleaned up the unpaid bills.
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Slang. To make a large profit, often in a short period of time: cleaned up during the bull market.
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— idiom.​

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clean house Slang
To eliminate or discard what is undesirable: The scandal forced the company to clean house.
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[Middle English clene, from Old English clǣne.]
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— cleanʹa·ble​

adjective​

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— cleanʹness noun
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Synonyms: clean, antiseptic, cleanly, immaculate, spotless. The central meaning shared by these adjectives is "free from dirt": clean clothing; antiseptic surgical instruments; cats, cleanly animals; an immaculate tablecloth; spotless gloves.
Antonyms: dirty.

I think the term "clean", whether refering to either a cool car, or a car that is in good condition, probably came into use when the first used car was sold. :L

"Clean" was a popular term used by musicians, in the forties (?), fifties and very early sixties. I recall using it again in the later sixties, much the same as we used "boss" and "bad" to describe cool cars, only clean was used to describe a beauteous hot car, not a beast.

 

[Mac]

Isn't $15K a little low of a maximum price to pay for this car? I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out why he didn't think it should be worth more than 10 let alone 15, when the seller thinks its worth 23. How can two opinions of the same car be so far apart

Think of it in these terms. The seller can ask whatever he wants; whether the vehicle is worth that amount is up to you, the buyer. He's asking $23K, your inspector thinks it's worth $15K, so we're talking $8K difference. In terms of bargaining, the seller has to justify his price; you can walk away.

The seller looks at his car from this perspective- a restored 69 bb is worth twice what the seller is asking, depending on what options it has, how much mileage, originality, etc. That value will, in all likelihood, climb as time goes by and these cars become more scarce. That's why his price is as high as it is.

Chances are your inspector is aware of the costs involved in restoration. Generally speaking, a buyer who's looking at doing a restoration looks for the most car he can get for the money he can afford, knowing the costs which will be added by the restoration. If the car wasn't worth restoring (ie: cost-benefit analysis) the inspector would say so... or at least I hope he would. Evidently, there's value in this vehicle but it's not perfect; work is required to make it so. The cost of that work reflects directly on the value of the vehicle. You, the buyer, need to tell the seller this.

That's why all these guys who hoard away a base-engine, rusty framed, non-optioned sportscars in their barns and carports are doomed to disappointment. Their cars aren't worth nearly the $$$ they dream about while watching the Barrett-Jackson auction.

VH Mikey, I'll trade my definition as soon as I find a good one. I'm still looking. Have you heard from RonD lately?

-Mac

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

VH Mikey, I'll trade my definition as soon as I find a good one. I'm still looking. Have you heard from RonD lately?

-Mac

You're on. Nothing from RonD in long time, hope he's OK.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

I'm sure someone can explain it better, but the takeaway from this is that if you care about an NCRS quality car, get an NCRS inspector on it before you buy. If not, enjoy what you buy anyway!

NCRS flight judging does not certify, state or imply that any piece on a given car is the original that it came off the assembly line with, or for that matter, came on any Corvette. A correctly restamped block that might have started out life in a Caprice station wagon would get full credit.

The terms numbers matching infers (at a minimum) that the orignal engine is still installed in the car

 

[Erik S. Klein]

NCRS flight judging does not certify, state or imply that any piece on a given car is the original that it came off the assembly line with, or for that matter, came on any Corvette. A correctly restamped block that might have started out life in a Caprice station wagon would get full credit.

The part of your quote I bolded is, I think, the difference in our opinions. NCRS judges may or may not certify anything but from what I've seen and heard they can spot re-stamped blocks pretty well. If it's done so well that they can't tell (and this is true of any part - if it's perfect and can't be discerned from original then it's judged original) then there are no worries.

Fortunately, re-stamping a caprice block to look like a Vette block is very, very difficult.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Fortunately, re-stamping a caprice block to look like a Vette block is very, very difficult.

Sadly the above is not true. It's very very easy to do this, just expensive. The engine block rebroaching/restamping business is alive and well. I have the business card of a fellow who was at the NCRS Orlando meet whose sole occupation is rebroaching engine blocks. It's a simple matter of having him drop ship the rebroached block to the next guy for restamping. Voila, another L-89 is born!

If the above is not true, please explain why there are way more than 100% of all L88, L-89, LS-6 cars ever built still in existance.

I can't agree with you that there are 'no worries' if the restamp can't be spotted- that's where the temptation to commit fraud comes from, either by the present or future owner of the car.

Hey, take a trip to Windsor next week for the NCRS nats. I'll sign you in as a guest and introduce you to some fellow judges who can tell you some real horror stories about fakey-doo cars.

 

[Erik S. Klein]

Sadly the above is not true. It's very very easy to do this, just expensive. The engine block rebroaching/restamping business is alive and well. I have the business card of a fellow who was at the NCRS Orlando meet whose sole occupation is rebroaching engine blocks. It's a simple matter of having him drop ship the rebroached block to the next guy for restamping. Voila, another L-89 is born!

Hmm. I guess I could be wrong or technology has caught up with my opinion.

I always thought (and thought I heard) that no matter how hard you tried there would be something about the re-stamping that could be detected by a sufficiently experienced expert. I remember some NCRS newsletter articles from several years ago that covered the topic and had examples of re-stamped blocks with explanations of why the re-stamp was obvious.

I can't agree with you that there are 'no worries' if the restamp can't be spotted- that's where the temptation to commit fraud comes from, either by the present or future owner of the car.

That's not what I meant, of course. What I intended to say was that if an expert can't spot the forgery then there probably isn't a forgery.

I could be wrong, though. . . I know there are a lot of fake cars out there. I just didn't/don't know that many or any of them have NCRS Top Flight awards. If forgeries can be detected then they probably will by the time they get to a national judge.

Hey, take a trip to Windsor next week for the NCRS nats. I'll sign you in as a guest and introduce you to some fellow judges who can tell you some real horror stories about fakey-doo cars.

I can get in on my membership - if I could make the trip!

Thanks for the offer, though, and the education!

 

[matthud]

Ok, thanks for all your input. With that said has anyone dealt with someone on ebay who was way off in price. I dont want to pay what he wants if its no where near the value of the car, but I like the car. I am a big fan of 69 BB's (as in thats all I will buy at this point). I dont want to spend $30K+ like most of the restored cars out there cost. I want one that I can drive, not one to show. But at the same time I don't want to do too much work on it. Thats why this one seemed to be a good canidate.

 

[Mac]

You don't have to go the full NCRS judged route but if you're concerned about "numbers matching" then originality is apparently a concern for you. It's not unusual for a car to be way overpriced on eBay and there is the occasional bargain as well but, in general, people vote with their wallets and each car, whether on eBay or whatever form of sale, must be judged on it's individual merits.

At the end of the day, it's your ass that'll be in the driver's seat so it's your call how much you're going to spend to get there. Simple prudence tells me if your inspector feels the car needs restoration, you should investigate what degree of restoration is needed and the costs involved. Classic cars, whether drivers or show cars, are not for the faint of heart or wallet. The best thing about Vettes is the aftermarket is fully developed so almost every part can be replaced. The worst part is the cost.

-Mac

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

Ok, thanks for all your input. With that said has anyone dealt with someone on ebay who was way off in price. I dont want to pay what he wants if its no where near the value of the car, but I like the car. I am a big fan of 69 BB's (as in thats all I will buy at this point). I dont want to spend $30K+ like most of the restored cars out there cost. I want one that I can drive, not one to show. But at the same time I don't want to do too much work on it. Thats why this one seemed to be a good canidate.

We sort of got side tracked, sorry. If your appraiser is saying the car is only worth 15K max, that pretty low for a 427/390. Since he also said it needs a restoration, that's all I'd need to hear to make me give this one a pass and move on.

Buy the best original/restored car you can afford, let the previous owner take the loss on the restoration.

 

[Mac]

Restoration is an expensive proposition, even if you do all of the work yourself. I never did tally how much my resto cost but it exceeded the value of my car if I were to sell the old girl but what are the odds on that happening?

As a very wise man (who is a CAC regular) once said "There's only one way to make a million dollars (legally*) restoring Corvettes- start with three million."

(*) I added this caveat- there are many unscrupulous people out there who would not hesitate to defraud a potential buyer or two (or by the dozen) by "creating" classics. Their profits, in my opinion, are ill-gotten gains.

Good luck in your search.

-Mac