DFW Paint Advice Needed

[Whiplash]

All,

I did a search on paint and found many good threads. However, some were a little old and others weren't in the DFW Texas area.

My wife bought me an L88 hood for Christmas which is pulling up my timetable for a new paint job by a year.

The car is Steel Cities Gray and looks ok at 10 ft. The previous/only other owner owned a body shop and repainted the car 4 years ago. The paint isn't all that nice up close and of course now it's base coat clear coat. There are runs, bubbles, and dirt in the paint :eyerole . You'd think he'd spend more time on his own car but oh well.

I understand that paint jobs range in price and quality. I now have two quotes in the Dallas area to work with but I'm thinking they're still kind of high. The body is in good shape and there aren't going to be any big repairs.

The first quote was for $12K. They want the car for 3 months. They don't pull the body off the frame. They plan on media blasting.

The second quote was actually a range.. $7-10K (I'm bringing them the car in person tomorrow for a firm quote). They also told me they don't pull the body off the frame because they can't support the nose properly. They propose media blasting. Also they say they spray a Gel Coat before priming. I'm not sure how they do this or if it's needed at all. They also need the car for 3 months.

Both shops are highly recomended. The first shop paints Ferraris, Porches, Lamborghini's, Vettes, etc. I didn't get the impression they wanted the job. The second shop supposedly does hot rods as well as insurance claims.

I can almost accept the $7-10 K range. I was really hoping for $4-5K. One of the big Corvette shops in the area seams to think I can get it stripped and squirted correctly for $5k but I don't know their paint shop yet.

So here are my questions...

1) Does 3 months sound realistic?
2) Couldn't I/Should I pull the body and bring it to them for paint while I work on the chassis and engine installation?
3) Is media blasting the way to go for real?
4) Anyone ever hear of Gel Coating the car prior to paint? I thought that was part of the molding process not a spray. I also thought that was only for boats not Vettes.
5) Can anyone recommend a few good shops in the Dallas area (the closer to Keller the better) that do old Vettes on a routine basis and could come in around or under the $5K mark for quality work (by quality I mean no runs, bubbles, peeling in 6 months/3 years but not a "show" car)? I plan on driving the car.
6) Am I off base thinking I can even get a good paint job for under $5K.

Finally, I'm going to change the color I think. The Steel Cities would have been nice if it didn't come out so green on the current paint job but if I'm going to paint it I'm going to get a color I like. My thought is a Cobalt Blue kind of like blue anodized aluminum.

Thanks in advance for the help. I did read the other posts but need all of your advice on the specific questions above. Leads on a good shop are even more important.

Whiplash

 

[speedmaster4]

true gel-coat is a boat deal--its relatively soft and is a topcoat (first layer INTO the mold)...paint does weird things on top of it....there are several other products refered to as gel-coat --if you chemically strip the old paint these are reqd to seal residual chemicals in and to stop lifting of fiberglass 'tails'

media blasting is faster, still benefits from gel-sealer , imposssible to get out of all the little nooks and messes up refinish

3 months is about double reqd time...lift body yourself but a good nose support must be fabricated (mostly bolt-together)....runs,bubbles, peeling are not part of even average workmanship....10k would get 2 nice jobs around here

 

[JJS]

$10K is a hell of a lot of $$$ for a paint job. I can't imagine paying $15K, or how that could be any better than a $7-$10K job. You're talking about a one color job here.

Personally, I love the Steel Cities Gray color, and I've never seen one that hinted of Green, but to each his own. If you're going to spend that kind of $$$, you might as well have it be the color you like! Best of luck, and please let us see some pictures!

 

[r71]

I had my 71 done at Classic Restoration in Bryan Tx. I pulled the bumpers , lights etc myself and had it media blasted ($750) then took it to Classic. They had it about a month. Then I put all the jewelery back on myself. They removed the doors, hood & vents & did some minor body work. The paint job was $5,000. They have done a number of corvettes and most of their work is on classic cars. Media blasting is great because you find out what is there underneath. Looks like hell when done but the paint shop loves it. If you blast and don't know the history of the car be prepared for what you might find. They use PPG products.

 

[Whiplash]

I had my 71 done at Classic Restoration in Bryan Tx. I pulled the bumpers , lights etc myself and had it media blasted ($750) then took it to Classic. They had it about a month. Then I put all the jewelery back on myself. They removed the doors, hood & vents & did some minor body work. The paint job was $5,000. They have done a number of corvettes and most of their work is on classic cars. Media blasting is great because you find out what is there underneath. Looks like hell when done but the paint shop loves it. If you blast and don't know the history of the car be prepared for what you might find. They use PPG products.

Thanks for the tip. The guys at Corvettes of Dallas gave me their paint guys name Cruisin Classics. I went down there this afternoon and checked them out. They gave me an estimate (without seeing the car) of between $4K - $7K. They use aircraft stripper. The price depends upon whether they strip it down to fiberglass or can get away with just sanding the current paint down (the car was base coat clear coat painted 4 years ago) along with how much prep I do such as removing the bumpers, lights etc.

I also found another shop called Corvette Specialists that I'm going to run by tomorrow for a price range and review of the shop.

Regarding the tint of Green in my Steel Cities Gray that's what bugs me now. See my sig to the left.

I've seen some great Steel Cities Gray cars and their paint always seems more pewter compared to my car. I believe there is a touch of green in the original paint from the factory but no where near as much as what's in mine. I think I'm going to keep it the correct color if I can get the tint the right color.

I'll keep everyone posted. If there are any more comments or suggestions please keep them coming.

Whiplash

 

[Whiplash]

$10K is a hell of a lot of $$$ for a paint job. I can't imagine paying $15K, or how that could be any better than a $7-$10K job. You're talking about a one color job here.

Personally, I love the Steel Cities Gray color, and I've never seen one that hinted of Green, but to each his own. If you're going to spend that kind of $$$, you might as well have it be the color you like! Best of luck, and please let us see some pictures!

Here's my attempt at posting a few pictures. I almost always see green when I look at my car. On cars like yours I see gray. Maybe it's just me. About 50% of people that see this car say its gray and the other say green.

Tell me if you see what I'm talking about.

Thanks. Whiplash

 

[JJS]

In a couple of the pics I think I can see What you're talking about, in the others it looks dark gray, which I think is really sharp. Do you think the previous owner did a repaint with some color he had hanging around his shop? How does your color compare with other STG cars? I realize it's a very unique color.....another reason I like it so much.

Like I said though, if you're gonna spend that kind of cash on a paint job, you want it to be done in a color you'll be happy with. -John

 

[BarryK]

your money so paint it whatever color you want, but personally, Steel Cities Gray is my all-time favorite C3 color and would LOVE to have your exact car (SCG 'vert) in my garage next to my '65 .

as for the painting, I just had mine done last year so had to go thru all the decisions same as you are now.
1. My painter will paint a car on or off the frame. If someone is doing a restoration and only brings in the body on a dolly he will paint it like that BUT prefers painting it on the frame as he says otherwise there is always the risk of damage to the new paint when dropping the body back on the frame afterwards.
2. Stripping the old paint: you have 3 options here. Chemical stripping, sanding, or media blasting. media blasting is the fastest and easiest but unless the technican doing it is using the proper media and knows very well what he is doing it can easily destroy the fiberglass body. Personally, I'd never let anyone near my car with a media blaster. Just my opinion and others may feel differently. Sanding is a better alternative to media blasting but again if the painter isn't very, very careful while painting it real easy to overdo it and round off the sharp feature lines of the car such as the peaks of the fenders, etc. My car had obviously been sanded (too much) in the past during prior repaints and other bodywork and my painter had to rebuild a lot of the sharp creases and feature lines of the car because of this. Chemical stripping is the best method (in my opinion) and that's how my car was done and is the preference of the painter I used. The key to a proper chemical strip to eliminate possible future problems after painting is to do one panel at a time and thoroughly clean that panel before going onto the next. My painter would strip a small area, than wash it down with lacquer thinner to remove the stripper solvent, wash it down again with soapy water, rinse it with clean water, than wipe it again with more lacquer thinner before going to the next area. After the entire body was stripped he redid the cleaning process all over again on the entire car. Than the car sat for two weeks without being touched to allow any possible remaining residue of chemical stripper "vent' out of the fiberglass. Because of his thoruoghness on the cleaning I have no issues with solvent popping at all. He has been doing older vettes for over 30 years using this process and never had any problems using chemical strippers because of this. The key is cleaning it well and allowing time for let the body vent before proceeding. The advantage to the chemical stripping is not damage to the body at all like you can get with media blasting or sanding.
3. Unless MAJOR fiberglass damage is present such as the glass itself is all fuzzy (typical for media blasting that's been overdone) Gel Coat is not needed and it was never used by the factory.
4. pricing will vary by area and by the amount of work needed to be done. You will never know for sure howe much actual work the car needs until the old paint is stripped off. My body looked almost perfectand I figured I only needed the car stripped and repainted but once the old paint was removed we found 40 years of "Bubba Bobywork" and it added an EXTRA 7 months to the total job!
Depending on the shop rates in your area, you should be able to get a very good paint job for between $5k-$10k, dpending on any bodywork needed, how much they are doing, cost of shop rates in your area, etc.
My bodywork and paint cost me $5k total but that's only because he is a very small shop, he is the only employee, plus the biggest factor is that he never once came back and told me he needed more money to cover all the extra extensive labor required for all the bodywork we found it needed after the paint was stripped off. Basically, he gave me those extra 7 months of work for free!
You can see all the work done on mine from start to finish on my website if interested:
http://69.253.166.197/page1/page26/page26.html
5. time frame: IF you don't need a lot of bodywork 3 months should be a reasonable time frame but if they discover more work is needed under the old paint don't be surprised if it takes longer and whatever you do I wouldn't rush them. Let them take their time and do the job RIGHT - as long as they are actually working on it and not just letting it sit around untouched while they work on other cars instead. My job took 10 months.
6. It's a good idea to have them take the windshield out also to do the job correctly, especially if you are going to change the color. This way there is no overspray, they can clean up the channel area, and do the total job correctly.

i hope this helps a bit

 

[JJS]

Information and advice doesn't get any better than that!
Excellent post, Barry.

-John

 

[unleadedbrew]

Go by and check out Corvettes of North Texas. They specialize in C3s, but can work on any generation. Have seen some nice custom paint come out of there.
Ask for Darrell Weber
1719 W. Division
Arlington, Tx 76012
(817)801-4754

 

[BarryK]

Whiplash
A few additional things I thought of:

1. determine at the onset whether the shop is going to charge to as a flat rate for the job or as an hourly rate based on actual hours spent on the car.
Different shops vary on this.
My painter tends to quote as a flat rate once he evaluates the job at the beginning so I knew going in exactly how much it was going to cost me and none of the "well, it will probably run you between $xxx and $xxx". Of course he has been doing this for over 30 years and he ONLY works on C1's, C2's and early C3's so he is pretty good at judging by now what his time and materials are going to run on any job once he looks a car over. My car did throw him a loop though as neither of us expected to see what the old paint was covering up. He promised me a cewrtain price though and he stuck by it regardless of all the additional work he had to do. If the job was hourly I would have been able to afford getting the car out of his shop in about....... oh...... 3 more years probably!

2. IF they give you a flat rate quote and they find unexpected work is required that will take more labor and time determine upfront how they will factor in the extra amount - again a flat rate or hourly?

3. payment: Many shops do all the work than expect 100% payment at the end. Some want a deposit up front than the balance at completetion and others want to get paid as you go along. In MY case, and it may not work for other people or other shops, I paid him a deposit to get started than we set up payment as he progressed at major steps of completetion so he got paid a certain percentage after the chemical stripping was finished, than after ther bodywork was finished, than after the paint was sprayed, than finally the small balance left after the entire job was finished and I picked up the car. this worked for both of us since he is a very small shop it gives him a little cash flow as he goes along and on my part it makes sure he keeps working on the car rather than letting it sit and working on other cars in his shop. This way as long as he worked on mine and made progress he got paid. it was also less hurtful on my own wallet only having to write relatively small checks every now and than instead a big one for the full amount all at once. Again, this may not work for everyone though.

4. determine upfront about any flaws you may find that requires bringing the car back after the job is done and how they will be handled. This includes final wetsanding and buffing issues plus any runs, or defects on the paint or workmanship. In my own case, when I picked up the car he told me immediately i was going to find areas that I wasn't going to be happy with. These were all issues in the final buffing after wetsanding and he did it purposely. buffing out fresh paint can be dangerous and it's very easy to burn thru the paint, especially on edges. He didn't want to risk that happening so mant of the edges on the car weren't buffed out as well as they should have been. He told me this upfront when I picked up the car and we scheduled a date a few weeks later for me to return the car for a few days so he could rebuff it out again once the paint had cured further and it was harder and less risky to get all the edges once correctly.
I picked up the car in the middle of July and took it back to him the week before Carlisle for this. In fact, the car is going back to him again this winter to have him rebuff it out completely again and he is considering it part of the job and not charging me. Point is, make sure all of these possibilities are agreed upon at the beginning.

5. Get EVERYTHING you and the shop agree on in WRITING so there is not any confusion, question, or hassle afterwards. This should include exactly what the shop is going to do, how they are going to do it, how much they are going to charge, their estimate on timeframe, how payment is to be done, and how issues or problems will be resolved afterwards. Also, any warranty they offer on their work.

6. no matter what they estimate upfront, figure on probably spending about $1000 more on top of that on misc stuff. To do the job correctly they should be removing the old weatherstripping on the doors and it will need to be replaced, same on the windshield gasket when they remove the windshield, plus other misc items you will most likey decide you want to replace or have refinished. In my case I bought all new SS trim molding around the windshield because I didn't want to put the old crappy ones back on next to a fresh new paint job - things like this all add up so don't be surprised.

7. determine upfront WHO is going to purchase these misc items like the example ones I mentions above like the weatherstripping, etc. I ordered and purchased mine myself than took them to the shop for the painter. Other places may tell you they will get the parts for you but also some shops want to make an additional profit on the parts so be aware of this.
By ordering the parts myself i wasn't go to pay extra just for the shop to oder them in plus I could control what vendor I wanted to get different parts from for the best quality.

Ok, that's all I thought of now. Again, hope this is of some help to you.

 

[Whiplash]

Barry,

WOW! Thanks a bunch for the advice. I think I found the shop I'm going to work with today. JB's Corvette Specialists in Carrolton. They only do Vettes. He had about 10 cars there now from C1's to ZR1's. He was able to quote me a price without seeing the car. He does all C3's the same way,

1) Chemical strip including door jambs, under hood etc.
2) He is open to me pulling parts off the car for him but says most people end up having him put them back on in case the paint gets scratched.
3) He inspects and fixes any/all bonding seams
4) He repairs any fiberglass damage (I'm assuming this excludes total panel replacement)
5) Primer, 4 coats color, 2 coats clear.
6) Color sands if necessary, wet sands final clear coat certainly.

He just got done doing a Steel Cities Gray car that will be back from wheel alignment tomorrow. I'm going to go see it in person tomorrow. He too says it's a special color and wouldn't recommend changing unless I absolutely wanted another color. He'll do whatever color I want.

The price includes painting the hard top and proper fit of my new L-88 hood. He's also going to spray the current rear panel for my dual exhaust along with a replacement panel for when/if I decide to go with sidepipes.

Weather strip, windshield removal can all be done. He warned that sometimes the windshield cracks when pulled depending upon how it's currently installed. If he pulls it he'll clean the windshield frame, seal, paint and reinstall.

I can source any part I want but he's able to as well. He shops for price and quality. In particular he's concerned about good quality weather strip. Some kits don't fit well and others don't use the right kind of rubber. He has some recommendations.

Any parts he takes off he puts back on. Any parts he takes off that I want replaced he'll reinstall for free if I provide the parts.

He has a place to rechrome any parts needed such as bumpers.

He prefers to paint the car on the frame unless I'm going full frame off restoration. If I want him to paint it off the frame it's $1,500 more. He told me everyone who has chosen to pull the body ends up getting themselves into full restoration. He says it's a bug/sickness.

Timeframe is 6-8 weeks depending upon what he finds. Longer if needed. He says most people prefer getting the job done right not fast.

He did say the paint on the Steel Cities Gray is kind of funny. The metal flake in the paint oxidizes/tarnishes a little over time so a 34 year old paint job will look different from a brand new one even with the same formula.

Also regarding the paint, my 8 year old has come down firmly that he doesn't want me to change the color. He likes "Louis" just the way he is. We call him "Louis" because my wife told me the car had to be worth a few "Louis Vuitton" purses over time in exchange for spousal support of my project.

Finally, I guess the biggest thing that matters is that John at this shop just made me feel right/comfortable. He really knows his Vettes. He took a long time to talk to me without making me feel rushed. Everything he said made me feel like he has pride in his work and takes each car very seriously.

I'm going to see him tomorrow to look at the SSG car he just finished and again on Saturday to have him look at my car in person. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[Whiplash]

Stopped by the shop yesterday to see the SSG LT1 that they just finished. The color is similar to mine. The major difference I can see is the "green" tint is more subtle on the new paint job. In addition, the metal flake in the new paint job was nice and evenly distributed. You can see "clumping" of the flake on my car today.

Also, now that my wife has gotten into the evaluation she's pointed out several more flaws in the current paint. The biggest one that I didn't even notice is "curly cues" under the paint. It looks like either there are curly pieces of metal (like from a wire wheel) in the paint, or curly grooves in the glass, or pieces of curly glass under the paint from the previous paint job.

I'm torn on the color choice. My son gave the nix to the Blue I wanted (the car will be his some day if it's still in the garage after I'm gone). He likes the current color. He's also mentioned Black which is a hard one for me to pass up. I love a Black Vette.

If anyone ends up getting their car painted at this shop before I do please let me know.

Enjoy your weekends.

Whiplash

 

[speedmaster4]

"curly cues" are fiberglass tails...result from not using 'fibre-fill' or similar "gel-caot" after stripping...usually dont show for at least 6 months after painting

 

[George Black]

I vote you stay with the steel cities gray. Two reasons: It is the original color and it looks great. I also have never heard a negative word about JB's paint work. Everthing and everyone has been positive about him.