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[For Sale] 1990 Callaway ZR-1

Rob

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1990 Corvette ZR-1
S

Stan A

Guest
Nice car!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Rob,

Nice car but the market is way down at this time. Current retail on any ZR1 with that mileage is under 18k retail and the Callaway package would only add another 5k to 6k to the total value. This car won't sell now. I am sure that the reserve is at 32k or higher.

Stan
 
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LouBelleraVideo

Guest
Stan you sound like you'd make a great car salesman but I'll tell you what: If someone really wants what myself or Rob has to sell. and the cars are pristine and everything that the buyer desires, then either they can pay the price we want for the car or let them go ahead and find a pristine low milage museum peice at the price your little black book suggests.After all since there were a large amount of twin turbos produced <500> I'm sure there must be a ton of none raced, non beat up,fully documentated, showroom new 88 Callaways out there begging to be sold at some phoney "wholesale "price.When it comes to Corvette show cars I say the price IS what the seller wants to sell it for AND what the buyer agrees to pay for it.Just because one car may have sold for X amount of dollars does not set the price in stone for all others to follow.Each car is in different degrees of condition and if one is willing to wait and is not desperate then He should get his price for the car.:booty
PS
There is no such thing as the Market. That applies to current day new and used cars.The Market in show cars is the guy with the bucks and the itch to follow through on a dream.Some may want instant gratification and pay MORE.Others can wait 10 years for the dream car and pay LESS.But there is no Giant suppy and demand out there for Classics to create this so called market.
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
2,509
Location
Tallahassee, FL
Corvette
none right now :(
I'm with Lou... Stan A keeps talking about all these high end Corvettes selling at rock bottom prices... I sure havn't found any of these low priced cars... A Callaway ZR1, with the full body kit and less than 32k miles for mid $20k's? Show me some of these cars, because they don't exist in my world.
 
9

90Callaway

Guest
It's a very nice car in a very bad market...

I guess I'm somewhere between where Lou and Stan are coming from. Cars of this caliber are not going to sell for wholesale ZR1 prices. They are also not going to sell anywhere near what we'd like their value to be or what the owner probably has into them.

I've seen this car in person and talked to the owner. It is a really nice clean car. He's had it appraised for $80K and probably has well over $50K into it. I know he said he would take about $50K... I'm sure the reserve is close to that. It is highly unlikely the bidding will exceed $30K unfortunately. The person that is willing to pay $20K over what the market will bear is few and far between. I think he could probably find a buyer in the ~$35-$40K range if he markets it well.

As far as what cars are selling for right now - You can find a nice clean Callaway TT (B2K) for high $20s and very nice stock early ZR1s are in the very high teens to low 20's. That's a fact and you can find them all day long. Many are not selling at those prices and have been on the market for months... that's unfortunate.
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
2,509
Location
Tallahassee, FL
Corvette
none right now :(
I agree you can find ZR1's in the high teens to low twentys... the thing is, none of the cars I have seen in this price range have much more than 32k miles on them... Am I just looking in the all the wrong places?
 
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Stan A

Guest
Missing the Point!

The pricing I am talking about is wholesale. It is what a dealer will allow in trade. I did not say that I agree with what is happening in the market, I am saying that it has drop down. You are right, no one can force you to sell your car and you can hold out for any price you want but when all else fails and you have to sell then either you lower your price and or sell it to a dealer. Thats when the pricing structure kicks in and you feel it in your pocket.

Don't be fooled by thinking that there is no market. There is one and we all are a part of it every time we buy a car or truck or SUV or even our two wheel friends. Everything will depreciate in value. Rarely does something go up. There maybe a very small number of extremely rare cars that have been made that can make this claim. I can think of a few. However, the Callaways are not even close to this category.

The production number of 500 cars by industry standards is extremely low. As to a number of cars that are in showroom are still very small. The industry guideline that the dealers use says that a car should have less than 1500 miles a year on it. Multiply this mileage by the age of the car. But this is not the only factor as everyone is aware of. The point is that the number of showroom Callaways is far smaller than all of you realize. The 1990-91 cars are years that we see a larger number in showroom condition but prior to these years there is only small handful that can be called showroom. Why is it that these few cars do not demand huge prices is because the industry does regulate there values by selling numbers.

Someone mentioned no seeing ZR1s under 20k with low mileage. In Fact two months ago here in Atlanta a 1990 ZR1 with 2,000 miles was sold for $21,000. I have seen other ZR1 with moderate mileage sell for less than that figure and this includes 1991 and 1992 cars. Again, I am talking wholesale. What everyone has to remember is that the retail price is based on the wholesale buying price. Dealers are in the business to make money. They could care less about what we want or like. The one thing that is effecting both the Callaways and ZR1s is the resale of the Z06 Corvettes. Wholesale on the 01 Z06 is ranging between 29k to 32k with moderate miles. The dealers are selling them for a few thousand dollars or so higher. Maxie Price sold two 01 Z06 back in March (both had under 10k miles) for $35,000 and $35,500. Now compare this car and its price to Callaway or ZR1. The Z06 has better performance and is technology more advanced. The dealers see Callaways and ZR1 as out of date and there in is part of the reason we are seeing lower prices. Again, I don't agree with their accessment but I am thinking like an owner not like a business man.

The Callaways and ZR1s are not the only cars to feel the drop. The entire LT4 series including the GS/CE are hitting the very low price range. A year ago a GS/CE convertible with any mileage was selling above $35,000. Today, we are seeing them with very low mileage selling in the mid 20's range. Keep in mind that the production numbers on both models are under 300 units(per model) for that year.

The main idea here is that it is a buyers market not a seller market when it comes to these cars. Whether I agree or disagree with what is taking place in the resale market is not important unless I have to sell a car. I would like to think that when I have to sell a Callaway or a ZR1 and no private buyer steps forward and my last resort is the dealer that he would appreciate what I am offering him. The chances of that are very slim. He still will only offer me a figure that he knows will give him the best chance to resale the vehicle for a good profit.

I tell everyone the same thing. If you doubt what is taking place, go visit your local dealer and offer him your Callaway or ZR1. See what they will offer you for your car. Sometimes the truth is hard to take as an owner and a seller. If anyone is interested in seeing the wholesale pricing guide, email me directly. I will send you a copy.

I wish anyone who is selling one of these cars now good luck......

Stan
 

supernatural400

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2001
Messages
410
Location
massachusetts
Corvette
1993 SuperNatural 400 #5 /99 LS1 Z28 N2O equipped
I've seen the car at many car show around here, He's beat me once and I returned the favor last time are cars showed together. It's in mint condition, He's says it valued at 80k and is selling for 50k because he has a new baby and need to take care of family first.
 
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LouBelleraVideo

Guest
Here is where I believe Stan is making a mistake. You should NOT sell your car to a dealer period! Of course they are going to come up with all types of reasons why your car is NOT worth as much anymore because they know you are desperate and they want to rip you off by buying the car as cheaply as possible.Follow this general rule.Buy a classic car to enjoy that you can afford and don't look to make a killing on it when it is time to sell.Sell it as if you DON'T HAVE TO sell it and wait patiently for the price you want. You get KILLED if you Must sell it right away.All of these classic cars need TIME to to sell if you want to get a decent price.Remember comparing ZO6's to ZR1's and Callaways is nonsense.The ZO6 is a modern day car and there are a dime a dozen out there.We are talking about 12 to 16, 17 and even older cars that have withstood the test of time and by time itself have become charming,desirable and collectable.Why do you think the big block 60's Vettes command so much money? Surely a ZO6 could blow them away performance wise.It's the age and the scarcity of the cars.There is an ass for every seat and I tell you that if someone is hot for your classic and the car is a low milage museum piece you'll get your price.A ZR1 with 2,000 miles for 21 grand? Hogwash! Go to the Rogers Corvette Center and tell me if you see one of His ZR1's listed for that. They start at 32 grand and go up to 54 grand
:cool
 
S

Stan A

Guest
Good Point

Lou does make a good point. Not selling if you do not have too especially to a dealer. This is the case no matter what you own and have to sell.

Lou you miss the point of what this is all about. I am not the one who is making a mistake. I am stating cold hard facts when its comes to car values. I don't set the values that dealers go by. They do by their actions.

Lou says that the Z06 has no effect on the Callaways and ZR1s. They do when it comes to buying a vehicle when performance is one of the first things that we consider. Age is the other. What you need to realize that a person with $35,000 or so can buy a Z06 and still have warranty besides the fact that the car is a better performer and is technically more advance. These considerations are very important to the majority of buyers.

The buying of a rare and collectable car like what we have talked about is a different side of the coin. Retail pricing comes from dealers wholesale actions. Lou also mentioned the "big blocks" and how the value has soared over the years. True, but even these cars have dropped in value a ton since 1997.

A rare car by any manufacturer if in above showroom condition will always warrant a higher price in any market. No one will dispute this. The key element is the demand. When there are more buyers than sellers then values will change. This is even at the wholesale level.

Our current market of buyers is very small for Callaway cars. There are more sellers. That access money most of us enjoyed three or so years ago when the economy was good has slowly disappeared. Jobs lost and companies folding has led the way to market conditions becoming less stable. I won't argue about how the economy stands. The struggles in the stock market and major giants corporations in industry go bankrupkt are an indicator of how the economy is moving now. The point is that this does effect what happens and spills down to the individual level with regards to how we spend our money. Very few of us can say that things are better now then a few years back. This translates to more sellers than buyer.

The market values of the Callaways based on very low production should be thru the roof no matter what market conditions but its not. Contributing factors that have keep prices down are as follows:

The B2k option is not well known.
The common mistake that the car is difficult to maintain.
Hard to find parts when needed.
Repair costs are very high.

As owners, we know that these statements are at best only half truths. But the buying public which includes other Corvette owners can not see what we see with regards to these statements. Also the C5 owners for the most part have never heard of a Callaway TT or Supernatural. They are in many ways a different breed of owners. If you take all these things in consideration, you will see that the number of possible buyers has been reduced to a very small level.

With all this in mind, the importants of joining together to form a owners group is one step toward insurancing a brighter future for these cars. As Lou and everyone else has said at one time or another, ....."People will forgot about the Callaway cars and there place in automotive history if we do not promote them on a regular basis". As everyone knows this does effect values as well.

No one has a greater interest than I do and wishes the market value on these cars to rocket skyward. But I am only one voice. As much I speak with dealers and owners, it will take much more to start us in that direction. Carlisle is the key! A starting point toward a rejuvination of these very rare Corvettes. All our voices together and a support group is the first step.

We can effect and push changes in the market by standing together and controlling how these cars are bought and sold. All of this will take time. This is one thing we have a lot of!

Stan
 
S

Stan A

Guest
Further Point!

Lou,

When I pass on info about a car selling, I do this to make a point. It is not bull****! If you choose not to believe it, its your choice. Its a free world. I learned years ago that it best not to accuse someone of a mistruth especially when some many people are aware of the facts. It makes a person look foolish!

In this case, I can say that whether you choose to accept what I said is unimportant to me. We all learn and gain experience by information that is offered. In many cases some people act like fools and never utilize this info to their advantage.

I would suggest that you contact David F at: dfulcher5@juno.com He too is monitoring the market and will happy to pass on what is currently taking place.

As to Roger's Corvette, They have a reputation of "over-pricing" their cars. I don't know a single sole who has purchased a car from these people because they are aware of these dealers actions. Pay more than you have too is foolish. But the old slogan that " a fool and his money are soon parted" does happen on occasion. Thank goodness most of us do not fall in this category.

Again, one high price dealer or two do not make the market. In many ways they actually hurt it.

I wish you luck in selling your car..............I would like to see you get what its really worth and more!

Stan
 
9

90Callaway

Guest
Reality Bites...

While Stan's harsh dose of reality may taste like bad medicine it is unfortunately quite true. The collector car market (yes, there is one) for better or worse is very cyclical AND fickle just like the stock market. Right now is not the time for ZR1’s or Callaways.

It is however the time for big block muscle cars especially anything with a top that goes down. One of my other cars is a 1970 LS6 Chevelle (hardtop). They were hot in the late 80’s, went in the toilet in the 90’s and are now making a recovery. A convertible (VERY rare - ~26 total) recently sold at Barrett-Jackson for right around $173,000. I bought mine last fall just before sales like this one started to drive the LS6 prices up. Although I paid many times more than what the car sold for new I feel I got a good deal. It’s appreciated at least $5000 since I purchased it… that could change tomorrow.

Maybe someday my 1990 Callaway roadster will be worth six figures. But right now it’s worth maybe $30K to someone? That’s because the market is depressed. I really don’t care. Well actually I do but I’m not planning on selling any time soon. Therefore I haven’t lost anything AND I’m having lots of fun to boot. I bought it right so I haven’t really taken much of a hit like the previous owner. It’s certainly done better than many of the stocks I’ve purchased in the last few years!

There are some very valid points being made here. People that make hasty sales whether it be for financial reasons, something better came along or whatever drive down the market. It is especially bad when people trade what should be collector cars to dealers. The Z06 does impact the current market for ZR1’s and Callaways. Unfortunately many people want that car over the older technology for better or worse. It impacts the pool of available buyers for our cars. These cars are commodity items. Anything available in a finite number is going to be impacted by supply and demand.

I wish I could share Lou’s idealistic view of the market (that he states doesn’t exist). Please don’t take this as a slam it is not. I wish more people had the same view as our cars would be worth more. Unfortunately I am too much of a realist. If and when I do get ready to sell one of my cars I hope I find a buyer that shares the belief that our cars are special.
 

TAC

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2002
Messages
252
Location
Bothell, WA
Corvette
1987 Yellow Callaway TT Convertible & 2003 MY Z06
I think it's more a case of both views being close to the truth. We have very collectible cars...some of which are driven pretty regularly and some of which are in very pristine condition. I think there are those people out there that will pony up for the very pristine car if they really want it and don't want it to get away. There are also those who see these cars as cool early model surrogates of modern models like the Z06 and will price them in line with used Z06 cars. The hard part to swallow is that some buyers are not going to see your car in the same light you see it and offer less money than you think it's worth.
 
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LouBelleraVideo

Guest
Here we go again!:duh Of course there is going to be a much bigger supply and demand for a NEW car versus an older classic.If it was the reverse then the automotive industry would go bankrupt if everyone decided to take their 35 grand and run out and buy a Callaway or whatever.That's why every other TV ad is an automotive ad. same goes for the newspapers.That's why it makes no sense to say the average Joe would rather plunk His 35 grand towards a new ZO6 versus an older collectable. I'm talking about the Man who has everything! Now he wants a dream car toy.Whether that toy is an 88 Callaway or a 59 Eldorado Biarritz convertible. These are the people who basically appreciate and buy or sell the type of car I'm talking about.It's a private market, not a market that has concrete prices like the new and used car market.You can buy a 59 Eldo Biarritz with all the orginal paint and 5,000 miles in new condition for a hundred grand! If I had the dough and I wanted that car badly enough in that kind of shape, HELL I'D PAY THAT PRICE!! If however I was on a budget and I wanted something less I'd shop around and pay less and get less.OR maybe the tooth fairy would smile at me and I'd get the first one at a 70,000 dollar discount for 30 grand! Hey like the lottery says you never know! The point here there is no so called market set in stone for collectables.True there may be a general guideline but when you deal with emotions and on demand desires of certain buyers,if the car sings the right song, and money is not a problem for the buyer it can command the big bucks! In my many years of collecting cars I can tell you 80% of the classics out there are listed as pristine and original yet only a handful truly are.So don't always believe what you read about some dynomite classic selling for a cheap price.The truly great ones rarely do.
By the way Stan, How many classics cars do you own right now? :bu
PS
You can see how much Stan knows by the way He bad mouths perhaps the Country's BEST used and new Corvette dealership:Rogers Corvette Center.Tell you what stan, how many 96 Corvette Grand Sport convertibles to you have to sell? I thought so.God bless Rogers for obtaining 3 of them and the other fabulous Vettes like the 1 of 116 bright copper 94 Coupe that the have for sale.His prices command the respect for the car yet they are actually cheaper than Unique Corvettes or BayState Motorsports, or D&M Corvettes.Do your homework Stan before you Pontificate your knowledge of the classic market.
 

*89x2*

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2002
Messages
10,357
Location
CallawayOwnersGroup.com
LouBelleraVideo said:
PS
You can see how much Stan knows by the way He bad mouths perhaps the Country's BEST used and new Corvette dealership:Rogers Corvette Center.Tell you what stan, how many 96 Corvette Grand Sport convertibles to you have to sell? I thought so.God bless Rogers for obtaining 3 of them and the other fabulous Vettes like the 1 of 116 bright copper 94 Coupe that the have for sale.His prices command the respect for the car yet they are actually cheaper than Unique Corvettes or BayState Motorsports, or D&M Corvettes.Do your homework Stan before you Pontificate your knowledge of the classic market.

Not a whole lot to add, that hasn't been said but... Stan gained his knowledge first hand by leading the Callaway Registry since these cars were new and continues to follow the marque. Although Stan no longer owns the 88 B2K he once had, I feel he adds bonafide information to this and other forums. He regularly dispenses valid advice and hints regarding these cars and will direct you quickly, should he not have an answer.
Keep the faith! :beer
 

Rob

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Messages
13,762
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New Hampshire
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1990 Corvette ZR-1
Lou,

I have to agree with Chris on this. I don't think your assessment of Stan is fair. Just my opinion.
 
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Stan A

Guest
The Truth is not Bad Mouthing!

Hi Lou,

The truth is not bad mouthing. Roger's has a great reputation for supplying quality cars but his prices are high based on the market. He is not the only Corvette resale dealer that has high prices. There are other here in the south. In fact I am not even saying he is doing something wrong! It a business with him like all other dealers. They are in it to make as much money as they can. I don't fault them for that. I just choose not to take part in it.

As it the Classic cars, I have owned several and when I sold them, I came out alright. I had a 63 split roof w/47,000 miles I sold back in 1988. I had a Mustang 500GT in the late 1970's that I was offered to me at a great price. When I sold that car, it went to a real lover of Mustangs. I made $4,000 profit which I considered very fair profit but the key was that I found the right buyer and the right home.

As to doing my homework, Lou that is what I do for a living. Follow and research the automotive market as well as do performance testing for a number of national publications.

Like I said, We to stop thinking with our hearts and follow the market. Carlisle is the key to the rejuvination of the Callaways and ZR1s.

Yesterday, I got a call about a 1992 ZR1 with under 30k mileage that was offered on the open market for two years and the owner never got a solid offer. He brokedown and sold the car to a local dealer for $22,000. He did well if you look at the wholesale price. However, the dealer had a buyer on the line at $26,000. Good profit fast sale........

Lou, whether we agree or disagree the important thing is that we all have the same long term goals with regards to the Callaway cars.............make them worth something!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone have a great day,

Stan
 
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LouBelleraVideo

Guest
It's YOUR car! Get the price YOU deserve

First amd foremost when you buy a classic never buy it to make money but buy it to enjoy and be proud to be the owner of a car that few others may have.Especially if it's in new like original condition.However having said this I find it qiute comforting that Delaers like Rogers Corvettes, Unique Corvettes,Baystate Motorsports,D&M Corvettes,and many other dealers of classic Vettes ARE asking HIGH prices for pristine Corvette classics.Lets turn to them and use them as the barometer of what these cars are worth as opposed to singling out desperate buyers who do not properly market the car and settle for a cheap price.Lets prop them up and pat them on the back and buy from them in order to help inflate the market as opposed to knocking their greed and looking to find a way to to knock down the prices of these classics by shopping them pricewise until you are blue in the face.Gathering at Carlyle wont help.But saying you will reward the hard work of the dealers that goes out on limb to bring you the very best documentated classics are worth the extra bucks not only deservedly rewards them but in the long run keeps the prices of these worthy scarce classics where they belong, on the HIGH end.You can't have your cake and eat it on the one hand looking to scrounge around for the lowest price by knocking the worth of the car and on the other hand trying to get top dollar when it's time to sell but find it impossible because of your past sins for trying to knock the prices down of dealers like Rogers. One thing I like about Rogers, they set a fair HIGH market price and will not budge from it even if it takes years to sell the car.THAT'S the way to rid ourselves of the tire kickers and bring stability to prices we WANT to remain HIGH as they deservedly should be.:beer
PS
I NEVER lose sight of the fact just how lucky I am to own a marvelous classic from the past that few of the masses can own in the condtionion of the vehicle I have. How very special that is when people marvel at a pristine Corvette from the past when it hits the road.Not to knock any new Corvette<I own a C5 that I love>but I think many of us when we NEED to sell forget or put aside just how special and unique our classic is and sadly settle for a low price because we can't wait for some reason or another to get the proper price our important part of automobile history should command.Enjoy your car! Support the dealers who appreciate the classic and charge accordingly.And please NEVER sell if you are desperate.Try to find another way to raise the money if you can.ALL THE BEST!:w
 

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