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Video: Fuel Inj Bosch III test

Send Jon a PM, and ask him who suggested posting vids of flow tests and other diagnostic tests for injectors and fuel, in 2007. ;)

I'm sure the PM is still in the banned account at CF. Same PM to CF admins, they said bad idea, for site sponsorship conflict. Take a look now... :eyerole
 
I think he's got a dozen vids posted; does he make reference to stock (mul-tec?) L98 injectors?


edit:
Looks like 26 vids, some multec-equipped L98's...
 
I think he's got a dozen vids posted; does he make reference to stock (mul-tec?) L98 injectors?


edit:
Looks like 26 vids, some multec-equipped L98's...
No, I meant what injectors does my '88 have ? I always assumed it had multec......:bash
 
I think all c-4 including LT's came with multec...and the veiled reference is they are trash.
The visual reference seals the deal. These test show a consistant performance from bosch.

I can;t remember if it's FIC or someplace else, but they don;t even want your old multecs to rebuild. After watching these vids,I can see that my tuning, emissions/temp issues are all possibly injector related.

Many vendors get to peddle their product to a mfg simply by meeting a design spec. It sometimes takes the general public doing R&D to show that a part is/was junk. History has always been very unkind to the low-bidder. For good reason.
 
No, I meant what injectors does my '88 have ? I always assumed it had multec......:bash

You askin' me??? I don't know squat - see sig...















Seriously, I'm not sure. Jon is pretty easy to get up with tho'. Definitely class act YUP.
 
C4s started to use the Multecs in 1989 which were originally designed for the LT5 ZR1. Despite some of the negative comments being made here these injectors were state-of-the-art back then. Excellent atomization and ability to run extended periods without burning up the coils. Yes, today the Bosch IIIs are a better injector with even better atomization. Biggest issue with the Multecs is that the internal coil is exposed to gasoline for cooling purposes. So the technology that allowed extended HD use actually hurt long term durability. Additives in gasoline eat at the protective coil wire and cause shorts. Just takes one bad injector with a low resistance reading to cause the ECM not to fire. Another issue with the Multecs is replacement costs. Hard to beat Bosch IIIs that have been flow matched and tested for $170. I find the Bosch IIIs (22 lbs.) more response to throttle changes, better MPG, improved low RPM power, and excellent BLM/integrator readings on my stock L98. They look better as well.
 
I thought they were wired in series and in parallel so this wouldn't happen?

Just takes one bad injector with a low resistance reading to cause the ECM not to fire.

I HAVE heard of all 4 injectors on one channel not firing tho' :confused
 
sort of...
in series physically with the wire, but parallel banks from the ECM, I think is the way to describe it. Each inj has the same 2 wires that originate as a single path in the ECM.

They are ground operated like all things electric on the c-4.

I once had a stock inj body that had a crack somehow, and as long as the key was "on" that injectors power would arc to the nearest ground. or the ground would arc to the injector...not sure which.
anyway, the result was that right bank were all stuck on with the fuel pump pushing as much fuel thru as it could. all because one injector found a short-cut to ground. With the power available all the time, that means the inj will stay ON as long as it has that ground path complete.

Bank fired inj had too much in common with CF injection..in fact, the ECM program for early TPI was likely leftovers from CFI ECM design since bank fire is basically firing 2 injector circuits, like the CF had. only difference is TPI alternates side to side off/on.
The individual inj firing eliminated that kind of problem. you can make it home on 7 inj...not a chance on 4.
 
L98 has two injector banks, 4 injectors per bank, each bank batch fired and wired in parallel. You can disconnect any injector, and the remaining three on the same bank will still fire. However, Ohm's law applies. So 4 injectors at 16 ohms appears as 4 ohms on that bank to the ECM. One bad injector can drop bank resistance to say 2 ohms. When this happens, more power flows back to the ECM. ECM is smart enough to sense this and stops pulsing the injectors to prevent over heating. DO NOT MEASURE RESISTANCE ON EITHER BANK OF INJECTORS IF THEY ARE ECM ATTACHED. The ECM is a very sensitive device and can be damaged by the internal battery used by DVOMs to measure resistance on this circuit, regardless if they are high impedance. My own experiences seem to indicate that anything less than 3 ohms on any one bank appears as a short on ECMs used on 1986-89 C4s (# 1227165).

Added...
As stated above, the batch fire is a carry over in design, but that was really a limitation of ECM processing speed. Just not fast enough to process each injector individually. GM increased the ECM speed starting in 1986, but maintained the batch fire. This is one reason why flow matched injectors respond so well in L98s.
 
Here is an example of a 1989 Firebird. May provide a better idea on how the two banks are wired to the ECM and ground.
 
Jon would know right off hand; he's pretty easy to get in touch with on injector ID.




ECM is smart enough to sense this and stops pulsing the injectors to prevent over heating.
That makes more sense, ESPECIALLY since the diagram shows the injectors in parallel...


They are ground operated like all things electric on the c-4.
This part I don't think is right.

I had an involved discussion on the boards with 'Jeff', about a PHYSICAL switch that grounds (completes) the circuit for injectors. I said there HAS TO be some sort of 'switch'. He said there's no physical 'switch', but he didn't say how it DOES work.

So in layman's guess, the circuit is ALWAYS charged, and the current is modulated - pulse-width-modulation, to the point where the injector solenoid is charged, and opens. The modulation is controlled by the software driver program in the ECM/PCM. The 'ground' for the injector circuit is integrated with other circuits in the ECM printed circuit board (?) , and only the ECM itself has a dedicated ground. ?

But THEN, with a failing injector in PARALLEL, how does the ECM read 'unused' PWM current???

Sound good? ;shrug


edit:
The diagram doesn't show a signal 'return' to the ECM for the injector circuit. ?
 
Schrade,
Let me try and clarify two points.
1. ECM grounds 4 injectors at a time because they are wired in parallel - TRUE
Jeff's comments are correct. 12 volts is supplied to each bank via a fused circuit. INJ1 is bank one with 4 injectors that uses a 7.5 amp fuse because it also provides power to the telltale assembly. INJ2 is the second bank of 4 injectors which uses a 5 amp fuse. So battery voltage is provided to each injector. One voltage supply is wired to each injector in parallel. The ECM injector wire is the return line that completes the parallel wiring. This allows any 1 injector (or more) to be unplugged on either bank yet still maintain injector power and ECM switching to those still connected. The ECM provides the electronic switch to ground at the bank level. The PWM is programmed pulses and durations based on GM's specifications. Think of this as an ultra fast relay with no mechanical parts.

2. ECM has built in protection from too much current - TRUE
When everything is working properly, that is with four 16 ohm injectors in parallel from a 12 volt source, the ECM 's internal electronic grounding switch can operate. Based on ohms law of I = V / R (Current = Voltage Divided by Resistance) if the supply remains the same (V), and resistance levels drop (R), then more current flows every time the ECM pulses a bank of injectors. If too much current flows we would overheat the ECM. The electronics within the ECM that is used to fire the injector banks can only operate with a specific voltage and current range. So this is what creates a built in safety net for the ECM that can shut down pulsing. We may see a no start condition (or other issue), but at least the ECM is not fried because too much current was flowing. In reality, the ECM has no clue what the resistance is of each bank of injectors. It works as long as voltage and current are within range. However, we like using resistance because it is easy for us to measure and pinpoint issues.

Comments...
Injectors should be very close in resistance, this is especially important on banked injection systems like ours. Flow balanced injectors are of value as well. You don't want any one injector causing a lean or rich condition when the ECM can only manage a bank of 4 injectors at a time. Just unplug one injector on the bank with the O2 sensor (driver's side) and watch what the ECM does. It sees a lean condition and increases PWM, trying to compensate. We only have one O2 sensor and it plays a critical role in PWM for both banks. If you apply ohm's law to parallel banked injector wiring, it doesn't take much drop in injector resistance to force the ECM out of usable range. What amazes me is how well banked injection actual performs.
 
Interesting.

First year physics was was only A/C and D/C. PWM was 2nd year and graduate-level stuff :ohnoes .

Looks like combination of waveforms, and a controller. I still don't follow the feedback mechanism tho'.... Why would it be fused, if it's regulated (controlled)? And HOW can it be regulated for current, when it's still getting other signals based on TPS, O2's, etc.?

AND, it looks like the 2 fuses are different amp rating ?
dizzy.gif


That computer don't play NoPE...
 
OK, Two levels of protection... Sorry, I little more of ohms law...

FUSE PROTECTION:
If the injector bank with the 5 amp fuse sees ~2.4 ohms or less it pops (12/2.4=5). Some fuses pop at 80% of rated value. The other bank shares 12V with the telltale that I can only guess consumes 2.5 amps. If the telltale was disconnected then it would take ~1.7 ohms or less to pop this higher rated fuse (12/1.7=7). Fuse pops if you jumper (short of 0 ohms) any injector. This protects the injectors and the ECM. Injectors can't take a continuous feed of 12V for long.

ECM PROTECTION:
ECM is designed to prevent pulsing before a short or near short pops the fuse. My testing shows that this occurs ~3 ohms on either bank (12/3.0=4). So the ECM electronics stops pulsing when it sees current greater than 4. The only testing I've done on the other side of bank resistance is pulling 2 injectors which yields a bank resistance of 8 (12/8.0=1.5) and the ECM still worked (played).

NET NET:
It takes but one bad injector with an internal short for the ECM to stop the pulsing of all the injectors.
 

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