Gel-Kote by Evercoat

[61 Silver]

I have the body work almost complete on the 63 SWC project. I have a few more panels to re-work and clean up the door gaps and I should be ready for PPG K-36 high build primer.

Has any one ever used Gel-Kote by Evercoat as a barrier on repairs and for a foundation for the paint process.

Thanks for any help!

Ray

 

[Fuelie]

Hi Ray,

I have only used Gel Coat (spray version from Ecklers) once in the past. It is very labour intensive from a sanding point of view. Of course I did the complete car with it to seal in all the repairs and some aging fiberglass.

However, I have not used it on all the other vettes that I have done repairs and paint jobs on. I have not had any repairs show through from under the finish. With all the excellent paint products today and with a well done repair, I would personally skip any gel-coat application. Your work looks great in the pics, and the body looks quite fresh and stress free.

Hopefully other folks with lots of experience will chime in with their thoughts.

The car looks great Ray....keep on posting pics and info....we love it!

Take care,
Brian

 

[studiog]

Hi Ray,
I can't answer your question but the body looks great. Keep the photos coming. I did read somewhere that there is a newer gel coat that isn't waxy like the older type and is a bit easier to work with. Don't remember if it was made by Evercoat though.

 

[61 Silver]

Brian & Gary

Thanks for the compliments on the 63 body work, but most the credit must go to GM. This is the cleanest body that I have worked on yet.

On the past body restorations I have had some telegraphing of sand marks or shrinkage of repairs. I contacted PPG and they stated, "All repairs need to be gel coated prior to primer." I check a few auto painter web sites and the majority though that gel coat was best.

I have sprayed thousand of gallons of wood lacquer, but this is my third Corvette using auto acrylic lacquer. I would like to finally get the body work or paint prep down pat. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated.

Ray

 

[Fuelie]

Ray,

Do you have a spare fiberglass panel of any kind laying around in your shop? What about refinishing that panel with some of the Evercoat Gel Coat and see what you think of the product.

I agree with the thought process that the gel coat will seal the fiberglass and help insulate the panels from solvent transfer. Lacquer is one paint that is very solvent heavy. (Ironically, the only car I used gel coat on, was done in base/ clear)

The issue that I had with the gel coat application was the waxy coating that forms on the surface just as Gary had mentioned. It made it nearly impossible to sand smooth. If this new product has a wax free surface, then it might well be a perfect way for you to go.

You have captured my interest, let me know what you find out in your research.

Take care,
Brian

 

[JonM]

The consensus I gathered was to use a paint system from one company...ie if you are using PPG...use the paints recommended for that process...I used PPG on my car and used the epoxy paint over my hi-build primer. Now, having said that, I am not a professional and am making this statement with no credentials.

http://www.ppg.com/cr-refinish/phase1/frmHome.asp

click on Commercial Coatings>>Product Information>>Paint Lines

 

[BarryK]

Ray
I don't pretend to be an expert on paint and what very little I've learned was only from the process when I got my car painted last year.
You may recall that I ended up having a lot of bodywork done and my painter used all PPG products. We never used any Gel coat on the car and he said in 30 years of working on older vettes he never once ever used Gel Coat. Of course, everyone does things a little differently.
After doing all the repairs he used some type of sealer to seal up the body and the repairs than primed it for paint.

I've never understood the need for Gel Coat on our car's bodies since they were never Gelcoated from the factory. About the only time i've seen thru various threads anyone really recommending the use of gel coat would be in the case that they media blasted the body so poorly that the fiberglass ended up being all fuzzy and hairy.
other than that why wouldn't a sealer followed by a primer coat work?

If you would like i can ask my painter what type of sealer he uses.

 

[61 Silver]

Hi! Barry

I have a problem! I am trying to learn as much as possible. I have used only PPG products on the 61 & 65 and have purchased all the finishing products for the 63. I used PPG MX241 OMNI-LV Polyester/Filler on the past two restorations and have a gallon in my paint cabinet at this time. I have read/heard good and bad things about this fillers. The paint on the 61 is aw some except for a few problems with repairs that accrued after a few days in the hot sun. I did have a problem with the 65, but that was most likely caused by the stripping chemicals (with the advise of John McGraw it did not happen on the 61) and cleaning process. PPG is the one that has reccomended the use of Gel Coat, I would like the paint on the 63 to be as nice as possible for a lacquer product. If I can create an air-make-up system for my shop I should have the 63 painted done and the 63 ready for spring.

Thanks for the advise and help!

Ray

 

[BarryK]

Ray
obviously if PPG themselves recommend you use gelcoat I'm not one to argue with them.
It just seems odd to me to use gelcoat when the factory never did unless you had very major fiberglass problems which from the sounds of it you don't.

other than checking with my own painter for you on any particular PPG product I don't know what to tell you.

sorry I can't be more helpful.

Barry

 

[gmjunkie]

I have Refinished complete Corvette's with Gel-Coat, Block sanded and Buffed out!! It doesn't hold up as good as Quality Paint! Fades, Cracks (Like a Damn Boat!!) PPG,Dupont,Sherwin Williams,BASF all make a good 2 part Hy-build Primer Sealer's!! I have been using some new stuff By Southern Polyurethanes for about 1 1/2 years!! It seems to Shrink less at repaired area's and can be thinned and tinted the color of vehicle for a sealer!! and is less expensive, about half !! Makes spot repair's a easy Match!! I call it Sprayable Sculpting Gel!! Sand's Easy, They say on can, can be sanded in 30 min. but I leave it over night!! I have Job's in all Kinds of Climate's and No bad report's yet!! Can be Top coated with any Base Coat,Single Stage,Epoxy or Urethane Paint!! junk!!

 

[61 Silver]

Hi! Barry & GM-Junk

Thanks for the responses. Barry; one front and one rear fender wheel wells were damaged. The person that had previous repaired it used gel-coat in this area when they did the repair. The repair was was undetectable as far as scratches and telegraphing. The body line and and spacing was very poor and could be seen from 10 feet away. I have reworked the fenders in hope of a non-detectable repair at least from the exterior. By posting in reference to Gell-coat use I am hoping for many responses pro and con. I hope to learn as much as possible on how other Corvette owners/restores prep there Corvette bodies prior to paint. You have been a great help and I appreciated it.

Thanks GM-Junk I will check that product out.

 

[WayneC]

I am no expert, but I've read and collected posts on this subject (and many others) for years. Most posters warn against using gelcoat.

One interesting article I read in Vette Magazine (Aug 2001, page 55) was about a 53 Corvette with a rather rough body being professionally restored to very high (ie, perfect) standards. They used something named "Awlgrip 545" and "Awlquick" in large quantities to cover and seal extended areas of pitting and cracking, followed by sanding and repeat applications of those products. Awlgrip seems to be a product used extensively in the fiberglass boat industry.

There is a good article on painting right here on this site:

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/kb/question.php?qstId=437

If you want a dump of the painting posts I've collected over the years, send me an email.

 

[John Mcgraw]

Ray,
You know that I am a fan of Gelcoat, and have used it many times. There is absolutely no downside to Gelcoat if you discount the additional labor. In my opinion, there is nothing that seals old repairs and consolidates spiderweb cracks like gelcoat. That being said, the stuff is a pain to sand and will sustantially will add to the labor bill if you are paying to have the work done.
I hear the mantra constantly repeated the it was not used originally, so why use it. The same can be said for high-build primer, surfacers, basecoat/clearcoat, or single stage paints! Many people will suggest the use of Slicksand, Featherfill, or any number of similar polyester primer surfacers, and that is fine, I use them as well, but I use them after Gelcoat!
Gelcoat is nothing but polyester resin with a wax that forms a cure membrane after spraying. The body panels of a Corvette are nothing but polyester resin impregnated into fiberglass mat. You entire body is made out of the same material! Most of the high-build primer surfacers are made out of exactly the same resin. The only difference is that these surfacers also have a large content of inert material that allows high-build and easy sanding. Even body filler is the same material, it just has a higher level of inert material in it. You can really look at a high build primer surfacer as a sprayable form of body filler! All of these products are made of exactly the same resin that is used to make the body panels on your car, and the only difference is the lack of glass mat and the percentage content of inert material.
Gelcoat is not easy sanding, it as a wax layer which clogs sand paper until it is sanded off and even after it is sanded it is a lot harder than Featherfill or one of the other surfacers. You only have to strip a car that has been gelcoated to see the difference, the car with gelcoat will strip right down to the gelcoat and then stop there, ( unless the stripper is left on way too long) but a car that has been done with the polyester surfacer will have the surfacer attacked and quite probably the body filler underneath. This because that the inert material that allows the surfacer to be sanded easily, also makes it porus like a sponge, and it will be penetrated by the stripper. If you are sealing old repairs from solvent swelling, which material would you rather have on your car, the one whick is almost impervious to solvents, or the one that will absorb the solvent?
There are many, many, cars painted every year without gelcoat, and they will, for the most part, perform very well. To me there is a distinct advantage to gelcoat, and my labor is free, so I use it. If I was paying for my paint work, I might be less inclined to use it with the additional costs associated with it, but probably would still use it. The fact that the PPG guys reccomend it's usage on fiberglass bodies should speak volumes. They know that there is nothing better for sealing down repairs and spiderweb cracks. Just my $.02 for what it is worth.

Regards, John McGraw

 

[studiog]

Ray,
You know that I am a fan of Gelcoat, and have used it many times. There is absolutely no downside to Gelcoat if you discount the additional labor. In my opinion, there is nothing that seals old repairs and consolidates spiderweb cracks like gelcoat. That being said, the stuff is a pain to sand and will sustantially will add to the labor bill if you are paying to have the work done.
I hear the mantra constantly repeated the it was not used originally, so why use it. The same can be said for high-build primer, surfacers, basecoat/clearcoat, or single stage paints! Many people will suggest the use of Slicksand, Featherfill, or any number of similar polyester primer surfacers, and that is fine, I use them as well, but I use them after Gelcoat!
Gelcoat is nothing but polyester resin with a wax that forms a cure membrane after spraying. The body panels of a Corvette are nothing but polyester resin impregnated into fiberglass mat. You entire body is made out of the same material! Most of the high-build primer surfacers are made out of exactly the same resin. The only difference is that these surfacers also have a large content of inert material that allows high-build and easy sanding. Even body filler is the same material, it just has a higher level of inert material in it. You can really look at a high build primer surfacer as a sprayable form of body filler! All of these products are made of exactly the same resin that is used to make the body panels on your car, and the only difference is the lack of glass mat and the percentage content of inert material.
Gelcoat is not easy sanding, it as a wax layer which clogs sand paper until it is sanded off and even after it is sanded it is a lot harder than Featherfill or one of the other surfacers. You only have to strip a car that has been gelcoated to see the difference, the car with gelcoat will strip right down to the gelcoat and then stop there, ( unless the stripper is left on way too long) but a car that has been done with the polyester surfacer will have the surfacer attacked and quite probably the body filler underneath. This because that the inert material that allows the surfacer to be sanded easily, also makes it porus like a sponge, and it will be penetrated by the stripper. If you are sealing old repairs from solvent swelling, which material would you rather have on your car, the one whick is almost impervious to solvents, or the one that will absorb the solvent?
There are many, many, cars painted every year without gelcoat, and they will, for the most part, perform very well. To me there is a distinct advantage to gelcoat, and my labor is free, so I use it. If I was paying for my paint work, I might be less inclined to use it with the additional costs associated with it, but probably would still use it. The fact that the PPG guys reccomend it's usage on fiberglass bodies should speak volumes. They know that there is nothing better for sealing down repairs and spiderweb cracks. Just my $.02 for what it is worth.

Regards, John McGraw

John your 2¢ is what got me successfully through my body work and painting process. I am very happy with the results and I owe it in large part to your help, as well as a few others including Ray.

 

[BarryK]

John
that was a very informative post. Thank you.
if you don't mind I have a question regarding one thing about it so I can understand it a little better.
It was my understanding (although I may have been wrong), that the resin in fiberglass work was the relatively weak area and it is the matt or the loose strands of fiberglass that provides all the strength. The resin was used to just basically tie it all together. Probably a very bad analogy but kinda like the mortar holding the bricks together.
if that's true and you say that gelcoat is basically just like the resin used in the bodies of our cars, wouldn't that mean than that gelcoat is basically a weak material and without the strutural support of fiberglass strands or mat prone to easily crack? Or is it the level of inert material, or lack of inert material, in it that provides strength?

This is a very interesting and informative thread.

 

[61 Silver]

Wayne C

Email: ray63@rochester.rr.com

Thanks, Ray

 

[John Mcgraw]

Barry,
You are correct to a degree. It is the combination of resin and glass mat that make a body strong, and fiberglass with too much resin will be brittle.The fiberglass mat can be viewed as serving the same purpose as rebar in conctete construction. Concrete is very strong in compression, but weak in tension or torsion, so reinforcing bar is used to add strength in these two modes.
The purpose of using gelcoat on a refinish is to serve 3 puropses, to seal repairs so that solvent (especially Lacquer thinner), won't swell the repairs, to consolidate the little spiderweb cracks that develop in these old bodies, and to seal down loose fibers that are raised by stripping or sanding.
The ammount of gelcoat that is applied is very thin, and will not affect the strength of the glass to any measurable degree. Remember, that while glass that has too little mat in it may be weaker than a panel that has less resin in it, you are not changing the ratio of the resin in the panel as a whole, you are merely applying a thin layer to the top. The inert material in body fillers and primer surfacers is simply for ease of sanding and high build abilities. Adding the inert material will make it weaker, and will make the finished product more porus.

Regards, John McGraw

 

[BarryK]

thank you John, that helps a lot

I am just constantly amazed not only by the amount of knowledge on this forum but also by the depth of it.

 

[61 Silver]

Hi! John Mc

Thanks for your response! I knew you would provide great information. Can I trouble you for additional information? Do you apply the gel-coat to the repair areas in multiple applications. What type of spray gun, tip and air-cap do you use? How do you remove the PVA (?) coat used for curing?

As always , Thanks for your advise!!

Ray

 

[IH2LOSE]

So after reading all of this good information.I can tell you

next fiberglass car I do will get the gel coating on it regaurdless of the addtional work or exspence.

As you guys remember we had a failure with my body on my 62 and i think if we had gel coated I would have had a better chance of the body not blistering.

Also if I was doing another 58 and up C1 not to factory correct standards I would turn the car upside down on a rotisery and lay matting and resin in the fender tops from the bottom to strenghen them, You just bairley have to touch them to see how week they are..