High Oil Consumption

[toobroketoretire]

Last summer I installed a set of higher compression pistons and rings from Summit Racing and ever since my 454" has burned a quart of oil every 400 miles. In the past years I have always used Hastings rings with VERY good results so I'm wondering if these Summit Racing rings were made in China and have low oil ring tension. The high oil consumption bothers me but as oil is so cheap I hate the thought of tearing it apart just to install a set of Hastings rings. I have Perfect Circle Teflon seals on all of the valve guides and the chrome-stem valves are new and the guides are barely worn so I'm sure it's the oil rings that are causing the high oil consumption. I am hoping the oil rings will eventually seat (better) but with about 40,000 miles on it they're sure taking their sweet time.

Last winter I had noticed it produced some blue smoke during it's warm up so I lapped the rings using a 50/50 mixture of Bon-Ami and ATF. I poured 2 ounces of the sloppy mixture into each of the cylinders (with the spark plugs removed) then spun it over about 1000 revolutions. That completely stopped the blue smoke during it's warm up but not the high oil consumption so I'm sure it's just low oil ring tension. My spark plugs don't show any signs of oil burning after an extended drive BUT they do look a little crummy during my day-to-day driving.

Have any of you guys used Summit Racing rings and ended up with an oil burner?

 

[toobroketoretire]

Disgruntled Employee?

Back in 2002 I overhauled the 350" in my '82 and it burned oil like crazy. When I tore into it to find the cause I discovered the .030" oversize Hastings piston ring set had standard (red) expanders when it should have had the green (.030" oversize) expanders. Had I noticed the wrong color of the expanders I could have stopped right there. It used so much oil the combustion chambers were slimy with "oil grease" and there was a huge buildup of oil grease on the intake valves. I put a new set of Hastings rings on (with the correct green expanders) and that cured the problem. How the standard expanders managed to get packaged with .030" rings is a mystery as you would think it would be impossible to do on a production line that was probably dedicated to .030" oversize rings. Maybe a disgruntled employee did it on purpose?

I'll bet my oil rings just didn't get their barrel faces worn flat during the brief "break in" period and that's why it's still burning so much oil. My front 4 spark plugs are always a lot darker than the rear 4 but that's because of the Air Gap intake manifold and my slow driving; usually around 1500 rpm on my local trips.

 

[LLC5]

Back in 2002 I overhauled the 350" in my '82 and it burned oil like crazy. When I tore into it to find the cause I discovered the .030" oversize Hastings piston ring set had standard (red) expanders when it should have had the green (.030" oversize) expanders. Had I noticed the wrong color of the expanders I could have stopped right there. It used so much oil the combustion chambers were slimy with "oil grease" and there was a huge buildup of oil grease on the intake valves. I put a new set of Hastings rings on (with the correct green expanders) and that cured the problem. How the standard expanders managed to get packaged with .030" rings is a mystery as you would think it would be impossible to do on a production line that was probably dedicated to .030" oversize rings. Maybe a disgruntled employee did it on purpose?

I'll bet my oil rings just didn't get their barrel faces worn flat during the brief "break in" period and that's why it's still burning so much oil. My front 4 spark plugs are always a lot darker than the rear 4 but that's because of the Air Gap intake manifold and my slow driving; usually around 1500 rpm on my local trips.

Probably not a disgruntled employee, just a mistake and it happens a fair amount on the parts end.

As a tech building an engine it is up to you to make sure that the parts are correct and fit correctly before installation, if the part is wrong you send it back.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Qt. of oil every 400-mi.

Sheesh. That's nearly a freakin' diesel.

Ya gotta figure that a former engine builder would do engines which use less oil.


Not only that, you're a former professional engine builder who...(gulp)...pours BonAmi and ATF into the spark plug holes.
WTF?

Ok, seriously (I now that's a reach on a TBTR–short for "toobroketoretire") thread, but did the ring set you got from Summit say that it had low tension oil rings? If so, that's your problem.

 

[kpic]

TBTR, you put a standard ring set in a .03 over engine; didn't you notice the end gap was incorrect?


LLC5: Only if one has the where with all to know the part is incorrect.

Hib: TBTR is a keeper.. A lot better than Toobroke....

 

[Antz81]

Not only that, you're a former professional engine builder who...(gulp)...pours BonAmi and ATF into the spark plug holes.

I thought I remembered him saying he was but lately he's been talking about designing machinery. Quite a difference between the two. Either he wasn't very good at one (or both) and changed career, or one was a hobby?

 

[kpic]

Antz,
Perhaps he forgot to say once upon a time?

 

[SVO]

I think TBTR is really Hillary Clinton....

 

[toobroketoretire]

TBTR, you put a standard ring set in a .03 over engine; didn't you notice the end gap was incorrect?


LLC5: Only if one has the where with all to know the part is incorrect.

Hib: TBTR is a keeper.. A lot better than Toobroke....

Once again you didn't comprehend what I wrote. I said the EXPANDERS were for a standard bore; not the rings. If I recall correctly the standard bores get red expanders, the .030" oversize bores get green expanders, and the .060" oversize bores get purple expanders. The expanders I got were apparently mis-packaged and the undersize expanders didn't provide enough ring tension.

Lapping piston rings is always done for engines running on "dry fuel" propane or natural gas when they have chrome compression rings. Something only professional engine builders know so that's why you were unaware of it. The lapping "dulls" the faces of the super-hard chrome rings so they will conform to the bores. Without lapping the rings will never seat so the spark plugs will get fouled until the cows come home.

So...................you guys learned something new today. Isn't knowledge a wonderful thing to have? I love to learn new things and at 69 years old I'm still learning.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Once again you didn't comprehend what I wrote. I said the EXPANDERS were for a standard bore; not the rings. If I recall correctly the standard bores get red expanders, the .030" oversize bores get green expanders, and the .060" oversize bores get purple expanders. The expanders I got were apparently mis-packaged and the undersize expanders didn't provide enough ring tension.

Lapping piston rings is always done for engines running on "dry fuel" propane or natural gas when they have chrome compression rings. Something only professional engine builders know so that's why you were unaware of it. The lapping "dulls" the faces of the super-hard chrome rings so they will conform to the bores. Without lapping the rings will never seat so the spark plugs will get fouled until the cows come home.

So...................you guys learned something new today. Isn't knowledge a wonderful thing to have? I love to learn new things and at 69 years old I'm still learning.

My guess is undersized expanders might lead to insufficient oil ring tension.

As for lapping...is your engine propane or N.G. fueled?

 

[kpic]

Once again you didn't comprehend what I wrote. I said the EXPANDERS were for a standard bore; not the rings. If I recall correctly the standard bores get red expanders, the .030" oversize bores get green expanders, and the .060" oversize bores get purple expanders. The expanders I got were apparently mis-packaged and the undersize expanders didn't provide enough ring tension.

TBTR, no one, including you, can comprehend what you wrote.

Your stories change faster than mountain weather. However, you're quite amusing.

 

[LLC5]

So...................you guys learned something new today. Isn't knowledge a wonderful thing to have? I love to learn new things and at 69 years old I'm still learning.

No, nobody learned anything new today from your post.

All the poster's here are fully aware that you don't understand what you are posting, or about anything that is posted to you.

And we all knew that you are in your high 60's.

 

[kpic]

Once again you didn't comprehend what I wrote.

Gee whiz, that means I have something in common with everyone else here.

Until our master techs weighed in; I thought I was missing something.

So...................you guys learned something new today. Isn't knowledge a wonderful thing to have? I love to learn new things and at 69 years old I'm still learning.

No one learned anything except as usual what not to do.

http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Manuals/RingEndGap.pdf

You do know the word "measure" and what it means??

 

[toobroketoretire]

If you're wondering how it was possible for my 3-stone hone to NOT hone the top 3/8" of each cylinder it's because I had used my ridge reamer in 2010 to cut a 1 degree taper down to the top of the ring travel. With the tops of the cylinders cut like that it's impossible to ever form a "ridge". And the one degree taper makes it really easy to install or remove the pistons.

And if you look closely you can see where I have done some port grinding to correct core shifting. When I glued a new FelPro gasket to the surface I found the first port was dead on, the next port was 1/16" off, the next port was 1/8" off, and the last port was 3/16" off. Both heads had the same amount of core shifting so I matched the ports to my gaskets and also matched the Air Gap's ports to the gaskets. And by port matching the ports to the gaskets the port diameters increased about 3/16".

I also cut the tops of the valve guides for .562" PC Teflon seals so I could install the smaller inner valve springs. The cam kit came with the inner valve springs, umbrella seals, and the Teflon PC seals BUT the guides had to be cut to be able to use the PC seals and inner springs. I stacked up about 1/4" of spring washers on the spring seat to act as a depth gauge for my cutter so all of my guides got machined to the exact same height that also allowed .100" of clearance at the full .556" valve lift. Something that HAS to be done when valve lifts exceed .480"

 

[kpic]

TBR,
I worked in engine design for 20 years and that is a new one. However, what would an OEM design engineering department know as compared to you?

You're funny; however, you're a never ending crock of misinformation.

 

[LLC5]

TBR,
I worked in engine design for 20 years and that is a new one. However, what would an OEM design engineering department know as compared to you?

You're funny; however, you're a never ending crock of misinformation.

C"mon kpic, how else you gonna get the rings started in the cylinder bore?

Ring compressors don't just grow on trees. Money might have to be exchanged to get one.

 

[kpic]

C"mon kpic, how else you gonna get the rings started in the cylinder bore?

Ring compressors don't just grow on trees. Money might have to be exchanged to get one.

I always used a ring compressor; I know foolish me.... However, one of my strong points, I've never used the wrong size rings of any type.

TBR is a veritable endless source of what not to do..

Under inflated tires, Bon Ami in an engine and more. I can't wait to hear what is next.

 

[LLC5]

I always used a ring compressor; I know foolish me.... However, one of my strong points, I've never used the wrong size rings of any type.

TBR is a veritable endless source of what not to do..

Under inflated tires, Bon Ami in an engine and more. I can't wait to hear what is next.

All memorable yes, but you left out my favorite, the cleaning of a paper air filter with gasoline moltov cocktail.

 

[toobroketoretire]

When I bought the pistons and rings set the rings came wrapped in tissue paper (no box) and I have always suspected they were made in China. They looked like ordinary rings but as they have never fully seated after 40,000+ miles I suspect the expanders are just too weak. I just ordered a set of Perfect Circle moly rings so hopefully they'll cure the oil consumption problem.

 

[kpic]

All memorable yes, but you left out my favorite, the cleaning of a paper air filter with gasoline moltov cocktail.

Under inflating tires to increase fuel economy is one of my favorites also.

When I bought the pistons and rings set the rings came wrapped in tissue paper (no box) and I have always suspected they were made in China. They looked like ordinary rings but as they have never fully seated after 40,000+ miles I suspect the expanders are just too weak. I just ordered a set of Perfect Circle moly rings so hopefully they'll cure the oil consumption problem.

Wrapped in tissue paper; just where did you buy them from; never mind I doubt I want to know...

http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Manuals/RingEndGap.pdf

"The recommended ring end gap for oil rings regardless of the engine application is typically .015 inches."
Piston Ring End Gaps

I would have assume you would know that; I know, once I had a football coach explain the word assume to me..

"CLEAN CYLINDERS THOROUGHLY AFTER HONING IS COMPLETED
Cleaning is most essential after the honing operation to remove abrasives and loose metal particles. Use hot, soapy water and scrub vigorously with a stiff, non-metallic, bristle brush (such as a bathroom bowl brush). Scrub until the soapsuds remain white, then swab each cylinder wall with the hot soapy solution to float out all remaining foreign matter. Next, wipe out the bores with paper toweling until clean towels show no dirt. A generous coat of engine oil should be applied to all cylinder surfaces to prevent rust. During assembly, piston rings and pistons must also be coated with oil as dry starts raise surface temperatures and cause scuffing"
http://www.aa1car.com/library/ring_info_speedpro.pdf

I noticed adding Bon Ami cleanser didn't make the list. Nor did they mention adding "foreign matter."

TBR, you're the ever ready rabbit of what not to do.. That said, you're really good at it...