Long post: Convert a perfect '63 to a Grand Sport clone?

[ArtZR1991]

I would think not just no, but hell no, when the car is a perfect, number matching, restored '63.

Gotta show you some pics:

Here's the situation, and it brings up a whole lot of interesting thoughts about our hobby (or, you may say, it doesn't).

The car was frame up restored some years ago to "concours" spec. But near the end, something happened, and the car was hastily finished. So, though it is very near perfect, and beautifully and completely restored, it is NOT a concours car.

Then the car sat for quite some time in an air conditioned storage garage. For example, though the entire suspension and exhaust are brand new, there is some "flash rust" on the steel parts. Anyway, after the car sat for some time, it was passed through the family to my client, who has absolutely no interest in the car, but does realize what it is. They know that it could have been worth quite a bit more than it is today. My estimate? you tell me, maybe $35-40k (today)?

Anyway, they were depressed about it's continued disuse and lack of maintenance and deterioration, and asked me to "take custody" of it for an indefinate period, maintaining it and showing it around at shows. Perfect, says I.

But now we get to its use as a Corvette history and show car. Obviously, we want as much impact as posible, and believe me, it is a real hit at any reasonable show with quality cars. But an interesting thing happens. When my Shelby replica is there, it (the Cobra) smothers all other cars. It is a replica, mind you, and not even an accurate replica, but it is a real retired racer (pretty rare), and has the endorsement of Shelby. But the thing that draws the crowd is the obvious over the top looks and the fact that it is obvious that it raced.

So I come to the question of perceived value. For those that do not follow Cobras, let me add a bit of background here. It is very unusual to see a Cobra replica sell for less than $30k used. Remember, this is a replica, with absolutely no physical connection to a real Shelby. And at that prices, not a very good one. The more authentic ones (but still with NO original parts), sell for $45-55k used. One with an original part, say an engine or block, get to $100k. If the chassis is original, even if the rest of the parts are not, then it IS a Cobra and $200k plus is average. If it is one of the 43 originally raced by Shelby American (none available at the moment), $3-5 million is average. You see what I am saying?

The greatness of the real car has carried even the replicas into the realm of reasonably collectable cars.

Now to my point: IMHO, the only American car that can stand toe to toe with a Cobra in the "WOW!" departmant is one of Zora's '60's Grand Sports. Unfortunately there were only 6 and you can bet your ass they are all accounted for.

But the real point is, because they look like they do (Cobra and GS), and because they have such a history (Cobra and GS), they are very popular, though you NEVER see a GS, replica or otherwise). And that is the point of showing the car.... to get the public's attention and telling them of the history.

So what if this beautiful '63 were transformed into a Grand Sport clone (not replica, more in a moment). And what if it were done in a very special way. For example:

All the original parts that were different from the GS would be removed and replacements made, thereby keeping ALL the original parts. Second, any added parts (a good example is the oil cooler on the rear) would be affixed with a method, such as high tech double back foam, that would not damage the finish. And all graphics wiuld be tape, not paint. No painting allowed. No changes to the interior, since the originals resembled stock. Lastly, there would be no attempt to EXACTLY duplicate the GS, because it can't be reasonably done, any more than a Cobra. So at the end you would have a GS clone (meaning based on a REAL car), and a hell of a show piece. But the original engine, hood, and other parts, would be cocooned and stored for reassembly at demand.


Then we get to the question. At the end of this (say $15k) transformation, you would have a GS clone that should (that is the question) compete very favorably against the best of the Cobra replicas for value. Then just for good measure, you would have the original '63 parts stored for reassembly. Hell, with no welding or modification, the car could be switched back and forth if desired.

Would that combination be worth more than what we have now? I suspect the answer is "yes". Would it be worth a LOT more. I again suspect "yes", but since my expertiece is obviously in Cobras, not Corvettes, I wanted to ask this highly qualified (dare I say opinionated) group.

By the way, the genesis of the question is not because of the value. It is because of the history of these two cars. They were the two that duked it out for the heavyweight title in '63. 64, 65, 66, and the fights were so spectacular that most people, even young ones, know just at least some of the history.

But not in my 58 years (birthday today!), have I ever seen these two gallant and spectacular warriors displayed together. But I have dreamed of it.

Kinda like the two bookends, with the story in the middle.

So my motive is obvious, as is my ability to do it or have it done. But can I justify to my client the investment? Can I protect the historical artifact of the '63 (that I would insist on)?


I am very excited about posing this question to you, and I hope for some thoughts. Thanks for reading this, and please comment.

Regards,

 

[61 Silver]

Hi!

Original Corvettes are very hard to find! Why don't you sell the 1963 and use the money to purchase an unrestored non matching number car. Use the money difference for the Grand Sport restoration. You then will have the car you want and someone else will end up with a matching number 1963.

Great looking 1963!!

Ray
65-250HP and 61-270HP

 

[Tom Bryant]

My $.02 worth

First let me make it clear that I love the road racer look on an old Corvette. In fact my '59 will have a strong race influence to it when finished. However your goal of having a clone of one of the 5 original GS Corvettes that you could switch back and forth is not possible. Every body panel on the GS is highly modified from stock. The front has the lights moved out to the corners and no turm lights. The fender sides have special vents with a grille and bigger wheel openings. The rear quarters have large wheel openings with unique GS flare with a large brake cooling outlet grille behind them and big brake cooling ducts on top. The rear body panel has the tail lights installed without bezels and a series of round holes cut across the panel. The rear glass has no split bar and is different shaped with larger radius corners and no trim moulding. The rear top panel has a trunk lid built in. I know that you said you were not out to make a faithful replica but any of these mods would eliminate to option of a car you could switch back and forth. Without these, especially the holes in the rear and the fender/quarter panel mods, it just isn't a GS.

Mike, Stingray6974 has a '64 GS clone with race history. He hasn't had it too long but believe me, it is a wild ride. It has many of the above mods done but there are things he still wants to do to make it more convincing. We took several pictures of a replica at Sharkfest so he can take what has been done so far and bring it up to actual GS appearance. Maybe Mike will post a picture of it here for reference.

JohnZ built a bueatiful GS replica that is fantastic to say the least. Of course this is starting from scratch with a GS replica kit but what a car he had when it was finished. Maybe we can get John to post a pic too.

There were many 63s raced when new, especially ZO6s like the car Vic Edelbrock races in vintage racing events. They have a lot of the road racer ques without the heavy body mods. I have stood next to Vic's ZO6 on a couple occasions and there is no doubt that you are standing next to a race car. The '63 ZO6 was the first attemp at combating the Cobras and there are a lot of vintage pictures in many books of them doing battle. The Mickey Thompson Corvette with the Mystery 427 started out life as a ZO6 first raced at Riverside.

If you built the '63 to a circa '63 ZO6 racer look you could achieve your goal but a GS clone would require heavy body mods to even slightly pull it off. If it has to be a GS clone I would sell the '63 and buy a '64 in need to build on. One main drawback is the fact that several members have tried to purchase GS parts like the headlight covers, grilles, ect. from the replica manufacturers and they absolutely refuse to sell anything to anyone that doesn't have one of their kits.

Sounds like a great concept though,
Tom

 

[ArtZR1991]

Excellent comments.

'61, I guess I don't consider the change permanent, and I don't want to lose the '63. You are very right! For exactly the reasons you mentioned, I want to keep it, but my unusual proposal says why not disguise it occassionaly. Now remember, part of the motive is to take advantage of the very rare opportunity to display the Cobra and the "GS" (or, based on Tom's idea, a race '63) together.

Tom, I agree with you. I am a great student of the GS, and realize the conversion I have in mind (refusing to alter any part of the '63) would not produce a GS clone that would pass even casual scrutiny of a knowledgable Corvette person. But it would stop a lot of traffic. And parked next to the Cobra, it would be almost unfair to the other participants. But your point is very well taken. So many people really don't know that much about the details, which is why I was proposing to fake it. So you are saying that the more appealing idea would be to do a really better clone of a '63 racer (using the same rules with regard to the '63, of course.) Frankly, it would be easier. That's really a good idea.

Now to continue. What about the value of the complete dual personality packege. Say the complete number match '63. Value=????) Now the value of a very well done clone, with a stroker motor. Value=???? Now for the best question, value of the two cars together (obviously only one showable at once) Value =?????.

Please continue the ideas, I really appreciate it.

In fact, here is an obvious question. Could a good clone be made, using the '63, but substituting any parts needing alteration, for $15k? Seems like a no brainer to me. Let me point out. For example, I would do a stroker motor, but the car would NEVER be raced. Street, show, fund raisers only. You see what I mean. Obviously, if real competition were the objective, the motor alone could be $15k. I have a BowTie 383 in my retired white bracket race Cobra, (see http://www.cobra65.org/hardcore99.htm )and it sure approached that number. (The Cobra intended for use in the "Gallant Warriers of the '60's" display is a very early ERA replica with an original Shelby 427, and a long race history (to be retired)). By the way, the really neat part is that it is pure red as is the '63!

Can't you just see it?

 

[WayneC]

Your Cobra is a kit-car replica. You can build (or purchase) a kit-car replica of a Corvette. Why ruin a decent original Corvette example when it won't even come out looking as good as a GS replica?

If you want it to look authentic, you'd have to trash the original car, along with it's current monetary value, and it still won't look as good as a replica built on a much cheaper non-original already-trashed donor car. You can't get anywhere close to authenticity with temporary paste-ons.

I have to agree with the others who've posted... sell this car to someone who'll appreciate it for what it is.

 

[ArtZR1991]

Wayne, I'm sorry, I think you posted while I was composing my rather long post.

I appreciate the '63 for what it is. That's why selling it is not in the discussion. Becides, the original question was based on the hypothetical circumstances that (happen to) exist now.

Frankly, I have a lot of experience with replicas, including the occassional, but really rare GS replica. I can't imagine a reasonable replica can be built from scratch for any amount even close to what the '63 would sell for. To clarify, I mean the replica is very pricey.

That's what I was alluding to in the original post. The price of replicas has, to be quite frank, gotten out of hand. I wouldn't even consider building one from scratch.

But again, it sounds like I may be unclear. I would never "ruin" the '63. If that were the outcome, the idea stops there. But what ruins it, if the rules I specified (and Tom modified) were adheared to?

And regardless, what are everyone's thoughts about values?

Consider this. Assume I were starting a long restoration that may take years, on the '63. Once the engine is pulled for reconstructing, what is it about inserting another small block that results in "ruining" the car (I mean in a permanent sense). Obviously, if the change were permanebt, you are right. But the original "rules" excluded that possibility. Nothing is to be done that is not reversable.

Thanks, and regards.

 

[JohnZ]

Having been deeply immersed in both replica Cobras (have built an E.R.A. and two Uniques) and Grand Sports (built a tube-frame D&D replica), I'm pretty familiar with the spectrum you're talking about.

I'd leave the '63 SWC alone - the modifications to create a GS clone that's anywhere near correct-looking will literally require sacrificing a beautiful original car from the frame up; the only production parts in a GS were the windshield and the door hinges/latches. Most people know that there were only five Grand Sports built, and when they see a GS replica they expect to see it as close to the originals as possible, or they tend to "pick it apart", if you know what I mean. I spent a long time and a barrel of money making mine as faithful to the original #003 in '64 Sebring trim as possible, with detailing help from John Mecom and Tom Armstrong (who owns #003 today), wheels made from the original patterns, etc., and it got color features in three national magazines, was judged as a 100-point car by the Classic Car Club of America, and got lots of other honors that made me feel really good about all the work I put in it to make it as correct as I could. You can't do that with reversible mods to a production car. Think about building a correct replica instead from the ground up - they're incredible cars! Try Mike Miller at GSR Replicas, www.grandsportreplica.com, or the guys at Timeless Replicas, www.timelessreplicasinc.com.

Pics of my Grand Sport and one of the Cobras below:

 

[ArtZR1991]

John, you're right. The "GS" idea has been quashed... for all the reasons you mention. Obviously, the real GS was not even the same size of the production car.

What about Tom's thoughts above? Perhaps with no engine change, other than cosmetics?

PS Edit: John, your GS is beautiful ( I have only seen one similar to it, that kind of presentation is really rare), and in the harsh light of such a reality, I agree it would be impossible (and wrong) to convert the '63 to that. It would ruin it, and it would be quite permanent. Wait.. ley me be even clearer; the size difference alone would make it virtually impossible, and as you know, even chasis is different, in some ways more like the Cobra than the Corvette. Nope, the GS fake is impossible. I stand convinced.

But some "race like" enhancements would still make for an interesting presentation (?).


see edits above.....

 

[Tom Bryant]

Art,

Here's some thoughts on getting the look that would be straight bolt on and 100% reversible. But first a story similar to yours. In 1972 or so I had a friend with a car like yours. It was saddle tan in and out but otherwise a twin. The main difference is it was a beautiful original. Not restored. Our club did a lot of autocross and he got tired of getting beat (especially by his wife). Well he started doing modifications, making sure everything could be reversed. Then came a series of engines, each hotter than the next. Then the need for serious rubber. Anyway in a couple years the car was lowered with complete Guldstrand suspension, massive flares and tires, very hot engine, different color, ect. ect., with very little of that virgin '63 FI left. What he ended up with he could have built from a parts car cheaper. I would hate to see that happen to your car.

Here's my thoughts. Any parts removed would be simply removed and no holes filled. Just like you would have seen in 1963. Take off the front bumpers and maybe the rears. This was common. Put on American Torque Thrust D wheels in 15x6 front and 15x7 rear with lower profile tires but not lower that you would have seen in racing tires in 1963. Wider steel wheels were very common too. Remove the radio antenna and install a snap in plastic plug painted red. Remove the stock exhaust and install an under car system that exits in front of the rear wheels at an angle using large diameter oval tubing. Use longer spring eye bolts in the rear to drop the car a inch or two and use shorter coils in the front for the same effect. An option would be one of those front cross leaf spring kits so you could fine tune the ride height so as not to have any fender rubbing problems.

Put on some vinyl hash marks on the left fender and maybe some number circles in vinyl that could be easily remove. A few other static cling racing decals would finish the look.

If need be in one weekend you could be back to original. Watcha think?

Tom

 

[ArtZR1991]

I think that's it. I mean, if you think about it, it's only a "look" we want. The look is the bait to get the chance to tell the story. And obviously, reversability is crucial... even to the point of not dong some things. As you very well know, in the '60's all the cars were different anyway. That's why I get such a laugh with my great Cobra maniac friends (with whom I have a much, much longer involvement. I've only had my ZR1 for about 4-5 years, and I am still learning Corvette ways) They get into these never ending battles about what was "correct". I have had a few laughs with Shelby himself about that. You take John's Cobra. A really beautiful car, and very correct, which is very hard and expensive to do. But I'll bet he knows that another one could look different and be "correct" as well. It is really the quality of the work that is appreciated by the viewer. Or, in the case of my white one, which is not even close to being "correct", it's it's colorful history, and genuine battle scars, which have been left as perth of the "look". One guy who didn't know I owned it argued with me that it was an original. Completely ignoring the BowTie engine!

So to answer the obvious question... My white Cobra was built over 20 years ago for full time racing (NHRA). Absolutely no concern for correctness. The only reason, in fact, it is even a Cobra at all, is the fact that if you wanted to build your own (which I don't), in those years the Cobra kits about the only well sorted out choice, and the chances of success were that much better. The reason for the BowTie was the availability of aftermarket parts. In fact the only GM part is the select fit block. I love showing the car, but it would never work in the "Warriers of the '60's" scheme I have for the combined display. I think The concensus, and the plan that makes the most sense is the idea you have proposed. But unlike your friend, we'll have a stopping point and not race compete the car. That'll protect it.

Now the cost of this method of doing it essentially makes the original questions, including costs, moot. Wheels, exhaust, graphics, dress up parts for the engine compartment. I think I'll even leave the suspension alone if possible, jut to be safe. As for wheels, I agree torque thrust D is the choice. Maybe halibrand look a likes, but they were not generally seen except on the GS. Is that your recollection?

Thanks for the thoughts.

How does this modified plan sound to the rest of you. In other words, the change over could be so easy that it could be an original '63 in a Corvette show, as it should be, and a '63 race car shown with the Cobra in open, less formal shows.

Can anyone think of a reason for concern there. I mean, I really don't want to devalue the car. But short of an accident, I just don't see a danger. Even the Red Cobra is treated carefully. The white one is plenty fine for terrorizing the streets.

And then of course there is always the ZR1, which I gotta tell you I think is the finest driver's car I have ever been in. Disregarding money, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Like I say, the '63 just "showed up on my door step" a few weeks ago, and I am still trying to sort out a plan. By the way, why hasn't some one jumped on me yet for my good luck?


Regards, and thanks for the conversation. This site is great.


PS everybody look at Tom's car. I would love to find a 57-58-60 body to yank the drive train from the white Cobra and stick it in it.