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oil pumps: HP vs HV

Joined
Oct 30, 2001
Messages
2,273
Location
Glen Burnie, MD, USA
Corvette
1986 Bright Red Coupe
A question. I'm told to avoid high-PRESSURE oil pumps because they can do nasty things to seals. However, nothing seems to be a problem with high-VOLUME pumps. I guess I'm confused how you can get one without the other - isn't higher pressure accomplished by trying to pump more oil through the engine?

Reason I ask is because my new short block is being assembled with a high-volume pump that's supposedly only a spring change away from being a high-pressure one. Should I be wary?

Thanks.
[RICHR]
 
Dont go with high volume, that'll break something.

I have high pressure Melling, M55A, had it for a year and dont have any problems whatsoever.
 
rrubel
i was always taught to use the formula 10psi per 1000 rpm...so if your running at 5000rpm,you should have a minimum of 50psi of oil pressure.....i have 2 race motors...one goes through the traps at 7200 rpm and i have 70psi of pressure......my other motor buzzes the traps at 8800 rpm and i have about 85 or so psi of pressure......seems to work for me
 
The following is from Canton Racing Products page on oil pumps and accessories:
Pressure vs volume

Pressure is created by the resistance to flow. For example, the water flowing out of a garden hose has relative low pressure, but when you put your finger over the end of the hose, restricting that flow, the pressure within the hose increases and you see the result by increasing the distance the water travels as it leaves the hose. The resistance to oil flow Inside an engine is from the clearances of the bearing and lifter bore. Engines with increased clearances will require greater flow to maintain the same pressure. As the RPM of the engine increases more oil is required. The oil pump selected should be able to flow the volume of oil required to maintain the pressure desired. A relief spring within the pump relieves the pressure when it reaches the desired level. High pressure pumps have a higher pressure relief spring as also do most high volume pumps. The main disadvantage of using a pump with the ability to flow more than required by the engine resulting in this bypass opening is a very small loss of horsepower.
:CAC
 
Before you use a high volume pump, check with the manufacturer to see what the recommended oil pan capacity should be. You can actually pump the pan dry.
 
Another oddball piece of information - the instructions with the pump state that "high pressure" is 70 PSI. I regularly see 65 on my stock pump when starting or high-revving, even with lots of miles on the engine. Is 70-ish PSI where I SHOULD be?
[RICHR]
 
No, mid 60s is exactly where it needs to be with the stock pump, yours is still going strong.
 
rrubel said:
Reason I ask is because my new short block is being assembled with a high-volume pump that's supposedly only a spring change away from being a high-pressure one. Should I be wary?
Thanks.
[RICHR]
Rich -
My opinion differs from other responses. I'd go with the high volume but not high pressure. I just rebuilt a 350 - all new bearings, cam & lifters, etc so all clearances are tight. Installed a Melling 55HV high volume and have 80 PSI cold & 50-60 warm. Perfect in my opinion. Most street machines around here use the same. Also recommended by the engine builder at the shop which bored the block. Make sure the oil return holes in the lifter galley are clean, smooth, with no obstructions.
With regards to vader's comment, I can't imagine how a high volume pump will break something as long as you use a good or new pump drive shaft and the distributor gear is in good shape.
If you are still worried about which to use, put in a Z28 pump which is a nice compromise.
Good luck on your CONTINUING project.
Terry
 
Thanks, Tnovot. Distributor gear is nearly new, pump drive shaft is new. Project continues, but the end is in sight. I hope.
[RICHR]
 
I'm also using the Melling M55HV pump and the hardened oil pump drive w/steel coupler, Melling IS55E. I don't forsee any problems.
 
I re-did the timing chain on my 86 and decided to change the oil pump while I had the pan off...I initially bought the hi-volume pump (which also indicated hi-pressure on the instruction sheet). A local engine rebuilder (builds race engines) told me to get a standard pump. The hi-pressure pump is for those folks with deep sump oil pans that run at high rpms....on a standard engine, the hi-pressure pump feeds oil to the heads so fast that the rods run dry and the engine goes south...I returned the oil pump and bought a regular standard pressure unit...
 
Hmmmm... another valid opinion. However, the pump I've got is standard pressure with a different (included, and currently installed) spring. It's just high volume. Did your engine builder say anything about volume, or just pressure?
Thanks.
[RICHR]
 
He indicated that any high volume pump is also, by default, a higher pressure pump...beats me, but makes sense...the only real difference is the internal spring.


He insisted that the way to get greater volume was to run a lighter oil, like 10w30 instead of 20w50...the thinner oil flows easier and the result is more oil...

I am certainly not an engineer, but I have heard this before. I run 10w30 in my 86 L-98 and it runs beautifully at 102,000 miles. I use Valvoline synthetic and when I took the pan off to replace the oil pump, I was amazed...clean and sludge free!!!! Love that Valvoline
 
For what its worth, heres my .02 worth: Dont use a H.V. pump UNLESS you use a HIGH VOLUME OILPAN,PERIOD!!!!! A H.V. pump WILL pump the pan dry under some conditions.Also it takes a LOT of power to turn a high volume pump!! Look, these engines run 100,000 miles or more with a stock pump, WHY SCREW WITH IT!!!!!!!!! If you MUST diaviate from stock, go with a high pressure pump, Just be careful when the engine is cold!!!!:D
 
ALL things being equal (and I mean all), installing a high volume pump will do absolutely nothing for you except increase the amount of oil bypass through the relief spring and consume a tiny bit more power.

Let me try to explain. Starting with the pump. The oil pump is a positive displacement pump. That means, at a given speed, it will deliver a fixed volume of flow, whether there is back pressure or not. Increase the back pressure that the pump is delivering in to, and the volume stays the same (being oil is essentially incompressible at the pressures we are talking about) - of course the power required goes up. This trend can be continued until either you run out of power, the driving mechanism breaks, or the pressure containing components downstream rupture.

Now the engine. As was already pointed out, the passageways and bearing clearances essentially make up the backpressure "system" that the pump is delivering into. Think of it like a fixed orifice. Try to pump more liquid thu it, and it takes more pressure. As long as the passageways and bearing clearance remain the same, the pressure for a given volume flowrate remains the same. Increase the volume rate, say by increasing the speed of our positive displacement oil pump (ie engine speed), and the pressure at the pump outlet increases.

In an ideal world, the engine designer would look at the oil requirement of each bearing, add them all up, and select a pump that delivered that exact amount of flow. But, that would not leave any margin for wear, for the variance in distribution and of course most importantly, the fact that the automotive application has a constantly varying pump (ie engine) speed. Granted, the oil required does go up with engine speed, but not necessarily in the same proportion as the oil pump delivery will be (which is direct with speed - double the speed, double the oil flow). So how to overcome this?

Select a pump that will supply the required amount of oil at min speed (idle), plus some wear margin. Install a bypass system that will recycle excess oil as speed is increased. Control that bypass amount by sensing the system delivery pressure, and maintain a more-or-less constant pressure. Select that design pressure based on worst case condisitons - the rest will be slightly over-oiled. The simple way to do this is with a spring loaded relief valve.

So, what does this mean? If you take a stock engine, with stock bearing clearances, and install a "high volume" pump (ie a pump that delivers more oil per rpm than the stock one) and leave the relief valve setting the same, then because the "fixed orifice" (ie the engine passageways/clearances) are the same and the pressure is the same, the oil flow to the engine WILL BE THE SAME. The amount of bypass volume will increase by the difference in the pump delivery capacities. But, it does the engine doesn't even know the difference.

However, if you decide you want more flow to the engine, you need to raise the relief valve setting, which will drive more oil thru the engine and bypass less. Interestingly, this can be done with the stock pump, up to the point all the margin is used up and the pump is "maxed out". Not a great idea. And, of course, running at higher pressures can exacerbate leaks. Extremely excessive oil flows can even start to wash babbit off bearings or cause oil film instabilities, but this is more likely in large, high speed industrial applications than automotive.

Bottom line - why is a high volume pump required?
 
My pump had a lighter spring included if you wanted to use it. I installed a 7 qt pan for the reasons listed above.
 
I *think* I followed all that... reason behind the HV pump? It's what the engine builder got from Summit. He says he always uses them and couldn't think of a reason not to. I can get a stock pump and put it in; I'd also have to get a new pickup (current one is tack welded to the pump). Also, I wanted to be extra-double-sure that I'd have enough oil both when running at 6500 RPM and when sitting at idle in rush hour traffic.
[RICHR]
 

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