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Question for Chris about the electric headlight conversion

MaineShark

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2002
Messages
1,326
Location
Rockingham County, NH
Corvette
1979 L82, 1987 Buick Grand National
I noticed that you've mentioned a few different "generations" of bracket designs.

And I also seem to recall something about different types of actuators, depending on which car and model year they actuators are removed from.

I was wondering if you could clear up whether the generation thing is internal, and the brackets/instructions being sold now are all the same, or if the buyer gets to choose which type of system he wants? And, if the second is the case, could you explain the differences and advantages/disadvantages of each design?

Similarly, could you explain the different actuators, and the lowdown on which is preferrable?

I'd like to do this sometime in the semi-near future, so I want to keep an eye on the junkyards and the "car being parted out" ads in the classifieds, but I need to know what I should be looking for.

Joe
 
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Joe
 
Joe,

Sorry I did not see this earlier. Been busy getting ready for the road trip to the 50th.

The design has gone through three main changes. None is better than the other, but the changes have helped put me in a better position to make the conversion available to other people.

Design one uses a motor that is EXACTLY like a 1988-1996 C4 motor except the main shaft has a different shape. The motor used in the conversion can be found on the late '80s, early '90s pontiac Sunbird with the pop up lights, and the last generation Lotus Esprit turbo. My "do-it-yourself" plans give part numbers and a contact source to obtain these. The benefit of design one, is the motor can be serviced as needed in the event of a failure with replacement bushings, and you can unbolt the upper section, clean/replace brushes...etc, if and when ever needed just like a C4. Design one uses a fairly complicated arm assembly to lift the headlight, but it does it with incredible efficiency and speed.

Design two is simply a change in motors. I have found that several people are having a difficult time obtaining the design one motors, and I had to go out and find something that would replace that. Design two uses 1993-1997 Firebird motors. There is a slight mod to the mounting bracket, but everything else is the same. The plus is, it is easier to obtain Firebird motors, and they happen to be the same exact family of motors used on the C5! The negative is, they can not be serviced. Once there is a gear or brush failure, you have to throw them away. The cases are plastic and are not designed for replacement of internal parts. However, I am learning that many F body guys are coming up with ways to service them, and install brass instead of plastic gears etc. So, as long as people are servicing 93-97 Firebirds, you will be able to get replacement motors for design two. The other good news is, as time goes on, no doubt somebody will start building a regular repair gear for the C5 which should be a direct fit into these motors. So, we will benefit from any efforts made on the C5 in the future to service the motors.

Design three is all about mass production. The arm assembly was way too complicated for me to duplicate time and time again, and many people were having trouble finding donor cars to get the arms from in the bone yard (84-88 Fiero). So, I went back to the drawing board and came up with something that is rather impressive. I went from using five seperate parts on the arm assembly to TWO. It slowed the light down by about 10% up and down, so it is more like a C5 in terms of lift speed now instead of a rocket like before. The bolt mounting pattern is also 90% more simple and easy to assemble.

So in conclusion, those of you out there with design one or two, are not in any way inferior to design three as I begin to roll this out of the next couple of months.

If anybody is considering this conversion, I will offer it in two ways. Brackets and hardware only, or complete turn key sets. On a complete set, it will be all new OEM GM parts. However, it can clearly be built with used parts if you are so inclined to surf the web, and comb you local bone yards...or spend time hanging out on a F body forum. I would suggest if you will be going with a bracket only set, to keep your eyes peeled for a sweet deal on a set of motors (you must also get the arms with the motors). If ordered new from GM, the firebird motors come with the arms. You will also need a 1984-1989 C4 headlight switch. These can be bought new from Napa, etc. for about $30 or less. You will also need a headlight control module for either a:

87-88 Fiero
87-2002 Firebird
88-96 Corvette
Any saturn with pop up lights
88-Sunbird with pop up lights.

I highly suggest clipping the pig tail to the control module off the junkyard car to give your conversion a neater, factory look when complete. The pigtails are available from GM for the Firebird at about $27 per, and the module uses two! So, you want to either use a donor harness, or hardwire each connection and fill the weather pack lip with silicone.

My do-it-yourself plans will no longer be availalbe after I get the production brackets ready for market. I just want to keep things simple, and the new set of plans will only be instruction based to install the units and about 1/10th of the current length of the "do-it-yourself" stuff.

I will have my 69 with me at the 50th, so anybody there that wants to see them in action, call me...904-502-7026 on my cell and we will see if we can hook up in the mass of Vettes and people that will be swarming BG this week!
 
Thanks, that really helps.

It looks like design three is the one I'd want, mostly because of speed. Ideally, I think an electric system that would mimic the slow-speed vacuum system would be cool, but I think the market would be too small to justify the development.

I know you've mentioned pricing in some other threads, but I was wondering if you could add it to this one, for simplicity's sake? I'm mostly curious what the price difference would be between a complete system, and brackets-only, so I know how good a deal I need to get on motors, to make it worthwhile to get used motors.

Also, does the "complete set" include the wiring parts, as well, or just the mechanical stuff and motor?

Thanks,
Joe
 
A couple questions I forgot to ask, earlier:

Does the new wiring system allow for a "service mode" (lights up, bulbs off), as the under-dash switch does with the vacuum system?

And, does the operation of the C4 headlight switch differ from the stock C3 switch (pull on, push off, turn to dim dash lights)? If so, what differences are there? (I've never had the opportunity to play with a C4's headlights...)

Joe
 
Joe,

The c4 switch looks and functions just like the C3, and fits in the same spot. The same harness will even plug in!

You can skip pull and just raise the light, or both if you pull it all the way out....just like a C4.

In other words, the interior looks of the C3 will not change in anyway with this conversion. No toggle switch, no strange wires, etc.

Price wise, I am pending the final billing from the machine shop to see what I can do. I am trying to shave every bit off of it I can to keep the cost down, but still make it worth my time and effort.

I have felt comfortable doing brackets and hardware at $125, and it will most likely stay around that price. The complete kit is high because of the cost of parts. Right now I would have to be at $700 for a turn key all new parts kit. I am going to work on that though and let you know how much I can shave it.

You could do MUCH better than that with used parts, or surfing the net. The bracket only kit will be the best deal for most people except for those that don't have the time and resources to try to obtain the other parts seperate.

I will supply wire connectors with the complete kit. In any install, the owner will select where they want the module and how they want the wires to run. So, the in between wires need to be supplied by the installer. There are several places you can mount the module to make it hide, and keep an ultra clean system.

Hope that info helps,

Chris
 
So, pull out partway to raise them, pull the rest of the way to fire up the lights?

If so, do you know if the service position use a separate wire to the control module? Of it there is some other way to trigger service mode? I'm sort of curious whether it would be possible to install an electric pull switch in the place of the vacuum switch under the dash, to trigger the service position, just for the sake of being semi-stock :) (purely because I think that sort of thing is cool - to be radically different, yet keep some things similar)

Joe
 
Joe,

It would be very easy to put a service switch in the stock location and just over ride the module.

There is no reason why that can't be done.

I did the same thing with my electric wiper door conversion and put an over ride in the stock place under the dash. That way I can flip open the wiper door with the wipers shut down to service the blades. etc.
 
Thanks. That would be cool :)

I'm guessing that I just need to find out which circuit on the headlight switch is closed to cause the module to raise the lights, and then install the over-ride switch in parallel to that circuit. An over-ride switch DPDT contacts would let me have a second connection, in series with the circuit that lowers the lights (assuming that's how it works, not just that when the connection is broken, the lights go down), so that the two switches wouldn't "fight" with each other.

I'll be on my way to removing all the vacuum components on this car, pretty soon :)

Hydraulic brakes. Electric lights. Eventually get a Vintage Air unit. Not much left on the vacuum other than the charcoal cannister, after that point... :)

Joe
 
Follow-up question:

What sort of electrical (power) connections are required? I'm going to be installing an auxilliary fuse box for my fans, so I want to get one that has enough spaces, to also include the headlight fuses. I'd also like to know what size fuses will be required, so I can make sure that the buss wire and main fuse to the fuse panel are rated high enough for the combined draw of the fans and headlights.

Joe
 
Since I didn't know you were gone when I posted this, I figured I'll bring it back up...

Joe
 
You need two fuses (left and right power source), and you can use a 15 or 20 amp fuse in each slot.

I would run the power off the main starter battery terminal and around to the fuse block, then split from there to the fans and lights.
 
Thanks. Would it be easier to mount the fuse block forward (near the radiator) or aft (firewall)?

Joe
 
MaineShark said:
Thanks. Would it be easier to mount the fuse block forward (near the radiator) or aft (firewall)?

Joe

I mounted mine on the inner driver fender well facing the firewall. I think Dave ran inline fuses on his out near the module.


It is your choice really. If you wire it right...you should never have to mess with the fuses again!
 
Thanks, I'll check out those spots.

On a related note, I was thinking of getting one of those plastic "project boxes" that Radio Shack sells, and mouting the fuse panel inside it (and the relays will be bolted to the sides, to keep things simple). Does that seem like a good idea, to protect if from the elements a bit?

Joe
 
MaineShark said:
Thanks, I'll check out those spots.

On a related note, I was thinking of getting one of those plastic "project boxes" that Radio Shack sells, and mouting the fuse panel inside it (and the relays will be bolted to the sides, to keep things simple). Does that seem like a good idea, to protect if from the elements a bit?

Joe

Yes that's a good idea. I mounted mine on my custom made aluminum front support piece, I will take some pics tomorrow and post them here.
 
Sounds cool. I went ahead and did the box thing. I have the fuse box and a ground buss mounted inside, switches mounted through the side (well, when installed, that side will be the bottom, actually - all the through holes will be on that side, so water won't get in when washing the engine), and the relays are mounted to the cover. I just need a few bolts and nylon spacers to mount it to the inner fender on the passenger's side (next to the A/C compressor).

Joe
 

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