remote start

[larry5868]

Has anyone added a remote start to their automatic c5?
If so, what brand and how do you like it?

 

[c4c5specialist]

HI there,
Due to computer sequencing and other factors, I do NOT recommend a remote starter in any c5.
It is a dangerous proposition.
Allthebest, c4c5

 

[Patrick]

I tend to shy away from remote start features, too. My old '91 C4 coupe had a remote start module as part of an after-market alarm system, and it caused computer interaction problems. The alarm would sometimes go off while I was sitting in the car with the engine running. It's a cool feature, especially on a cold morning, but I think I'd only get it if it were factory installed and completely integrated with the on-board computer system.

-Patrick

 

[larry5868]

Thanks for the input guys, I think I'll pass on the idea.

 

[Mike Mercury]

Due to computer sequencing and other factors, I do NOT recommend a remote starter in any c5.
It is a dangerous proposition.

could you please source that info ?

 

[c4c5specialist]

could you please source that info ?

HI there,
What do you mean?????
Facts on this follows.
If a remote start is installed, the installer must add relays to power up certain systems to turn on.
First, PCM.
Second, BCM and accessories that are needed to operate the Antitheft, or Passkey 2, which would have to be overridden for the car to start.
So, effectively, leaving you with NO Passkey 2 function.
Then, if one or more of the modules are not powered up correctly, the modules that are working will set communications codes because they are not receiving the SOH or state of health messages from the other modules.
Very scary.
If you need anything further, let us know, c4c5

 

[Mike Mercury]

Facts on this follows.
If a remote start is installed, the installer must add relays to power up certain systems to turn on.
First, PCM.
Second, BCM and accessories that are needed to operate the Antitheft, or Passkey 2, which would have to be overridden for the car to start.
So, effectively, leaving you with NO Passkey 2 function.
Then, if one or more of the modules are not powered up correctly, the modules that are working will set communications codes because they are not receiving the SOH or state of health messages from the other modules.
Very scary.
If you need anything further, let us know, c4c5

I asked you to "source" your "facts"... not to just repeat your post all over again.

Remote starters (like the ones sold by Bulldog - the ones I am familiar with) simulate the turning of the ignition key... electroncally. By doing it that way, there is no concern over powering up individual systems one at a time... because; BECAUSE it's the exact same as turning the ignition key. The cars systems think the key was turned.

The Passkey system is easily pleased by use of an external resistor and a relay that is controlled by a remote starter. So, the anti-theft system is still intact. Only a command received by a digitally coded remote-start keyfob will connect the seperate resistor into the anti-theft circuit. With no command received the antitheft system is in 100% operation.

I ask seriously here... were you just guessing? It's OK if you were, I just think it would benefit all other readers if you would state where your info is being derived from... and whether it's from hands on experience with modern day remote starting systems.... or just using common sense to draw a conclusion.

I've installed 5 remote start systems in the past 3 years and have never seen any of the systems work as you described.

 

[MsSchroder]

I ask seriously here... were you just guessing? It's OK if you were, I just think it would benefit all other readers if you would state where your info is being derived from... and whether it's from hands on experience with modern day remote starting systems.... or just using common sense to draw a conclusion..

Mike, are you not familiar with C4C5Specialist? He doesn't just guess.
Check his signature, and have a look at all the spot-on-accurate answers he provides here.

Tammy

 

[Mike Mercury]

Mike, are you not familiar with C4C5Specialist? He doesn't just guess.
Check his signature, and have a look at all the spot-on-accurate answers he provides here.

so am I lying here????

Common sense does have a place in trying to help others. Lets just label it as "IMO", or "I think there will be a problem" ... or "will there be a problem with the ....?"

I know of no remote starter systems that try to individually power up the PCM, BCM, or any other modules seperately.

It's a non-issue.

 

[MsSchroder]

so am I lying here????

I didn't suggest you were lying. The word is yours, not mine.

I am curious how you derived an accusation of lying from my post. Perhaps in the same way that you derived an accusation of guessing from C4C5Specialist.

I think your advice

Lets just label it as "IMO", or "I think there will be a problem" ... or "will there be a problem with the ....?"

could also be applied to the statement, "It's a non issue". To be more accurate, you might have said, "In your experience with 5 installs, it is a non-issue."

Tammy

 

[Bob Chadwick]

I asked you to "source" your "facts"... not to just repeat your post all over again.

Mike,

It's not what you said, its the old saying how you said it. Was this really necessary.

Everyone has their own opinion, which is a good thing. You disagree. OK. While probably not intended, the preface to your response is very confrontational.

 

[Patrick]

For the record, C4C5Specialists' signature:

c4c5 mechanics, ASE certified w/L1, Chevrolet Professional service guild, NCM#7993. A persons judgement is only as good as the information they have, which must be FACT, not fiction. My greatest asset, my daughter.

As a forum Moderator here, I have to state that it has been my observation that there is no one more knowledgeable, more experienced with and more trained in late model Corvettes. Last year, C4C5's seminars at the CAC's Cruisefest were among the most well attended and informative offered. He has extensive experience with at least two generations of Corvette in terms of a broad cross section of systems, he has more hands on experience in all the intricate elements that keep these cars performing.

Thus, I have a hard time when anyone impunes, even indirectly, his knowledge with these cars. C4C5's presence on these forums is a blessing countless members at CAC have benefitted from. Mr. Mercury, I hope you take this into account before you start questioning C4C5's understanding of the Corvette. Unless you have some professional credentuals you haven't yet revealed, I tend to believe C4C5Specialist may have forgotten more than you may ever learn about this vehicle.

-Patrick

 

[Mike Mercury]

OK, I now get it. Some people are allowed to state "the world is flat" and if it's "certain" people... then it's not to be corrected.

Mike, are you not familiar with C4C5Specialist? He doesn't just guess.

and a moderator knows enough about remote starters to claim the poster couldn't be guessing ???
Blind-faith is not a good thing.

That's OK. It's your forum, and just like the oxygen sensor reply was 100% incorrect - I'm not allowed to make corrections to false statements.

Have you contacted the poster in the "Remove Cats" thread and ask him to delete his incorrectly stated facts... or is the norm here to get on the case of the corrector ? I was only in the pursiut of the truth.

you say "Mike, are you not familiar with C4C5Specialist?"

I say; you are you not familiar with C4C5Specialist either.

Anyone that knows a particular specific... it's easy to then see when someone else has taken overall knowledge of a system and then tries to postulate a specific fact from that. This is called "guessing". Some are better than others at their guesses. I welcome all guesses.
All I asked is that the guesses be labeled that way by the poster. I can see here that "favorite posters" are not to be corrected, even when thay are dead wrong.

I have no favoites - other that the facts... and they are my only "favorite".

I'll still read and post the forum - but I know now to not correct certain "favorite" posters mistakes.

CORed91; I read your response, and what I read is "blind faith".

So be it.

 

[atmmac]

Jeez man just chill out he was just trying to help and your being kind of a tool. He said why it wouldnt work and i would think his source would be himself seeing as how he is the mechanic. C4C5 knows his stuff and he helps everyone on this forum out all the time and has been correct everytime i have asked him a question.

 

[Patrick]

Anyone that knows a particular specific... it's easy to then see when someone else has taken overall knowledge of a system and then tries to postulate a specific fact from that. This is called "guessing". Some are better than others at their guesses. I welcome all guesses.
All I asked is that the guesses be labeled that way by the poster. I can see here that "favorite posters" are not to be corrected, even when thay are dead wrong.


CORed91; I read your response, and what I read is "blind faith".

So be it.

That's the issue- you claim C4C5 is guessing. I don't read that in his response. I've never read that in any response he's ever posted. Perhaps, before you continue indirectly attacking his credibility, you should post what you're mechanical and technical experience with the C5 electronic and computer systems amounts to. How much GM-sponsored course time have you amassed? What ASE certifications do you hold?

You accuse me of "blind faith." Fine. Until you can displace C4C5Specialist in terms of actual hands-on knowledge of the systems in this generation Corvette, I'll put my faith in C4C5, and view your opinions (emphasis intentional) cum grano salis.


-Patrick

 

[1stiff84]

C4C5 is a class act, whose membership, talents, and willingness to share adds so much to CAC. He has never failed to help me and dozens of others.

If he told me the world was flat, I wouldn't prep that boat.

 

[c4c5specialist]

Hi there,
Thank you to the membership for your support. However, Mike simply wants fact, and in that, I can respect his position.
So, lets get started. This information listed is from a 2004 Corvette service information.

First, the description of Power Moding. Document ID 1211546

Normal vehicle class 2 communications and module operations will not begin until the system power mode has been identified. Discrete wires from the ignition switch contacts are monitored by the power mode master (PMM) module in order to determine the correct power mode. The PMM communicates the system power mode to all class 2 modules on the class 2 serial data line.

So, if you are using a system to duplicate the ignition switch in Corvette, then you would have to essentially override the correct ignition switch to obtain correct power moding and every single circuit would have to live. Then, you would override the Passkey to make the fuel enable circuit give the correct password to start the vehicle.
This could set a code B2723, which is covered below, Document ID 680097

The body control module (BCM) supplies a 5 volt signal and a ground circuit for the PASS-Key® system. This allows the BCM to detect PASS-Key® resistance values. Inserting the PASS-Key® (with resistor pellet) in the ignition lock cylinder completes the PASS-Key® circuit. Contacts in the ignition lock cylinder mate with the pellet contacts. The BCM compares the resistance value of the key pellet to the valid resistance programmed into the BCM. If the proper resistance value is read, the BCM allows the following functions to occur: If, for some reason, a constant signal is seen by the BCM, this code will set.

Ok, so lets just say that both of these are successfully overriden. Your next problem would be having all the computers communicate and receive the state of health message. This is covered in data link communications, document ID 1211569.

This vehicle is equipped with a computer system capable of performing multiple engine and body control functions. Vehicle components such as windows, locks, mirrors, etc. are controlled directly by their system control module. Each system control module communicates with other system control modules on a serial data circuit. The vehicle system control modules are all attached to the serial data circuit that provides the data link communications. This data link, or serial data circuit, provides 2-way communication between various engine and body control system control modules.

The control modules connected to the class 2 serial data circuit are listed below:

• Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
• Electronic Brake Control Module (EBCM)
• Electronic Suspension Control (ESC) Module *
• Body Control Module (BCM)
• Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC)
• Radio
• Sensing and Diagnostic Module (SDM)
• HVAC Control Assembly (HVAC) (with CJ2) *
• Driver Door Module (DDM)
• Passenger Door Module (PDM)
• Seat Control Module (SCM) *
• Remote Control Door Lock Receiver (RCDLR) *

* If equipped.

Some electrical system components are directly connected to and controlled by their system control module. Others systems accomplish the control functions by sharing data information with other system control modules on the serial data circuit to execute various vehicle functions. All system data information from sensors, switches, etc. can be monitored by any system module that is connected to the serial data circuit. Communications between each system control module is accomplished by sending a digitally coded message consisting of specific information. Communicating data information with other system control modules on the same serial data circuit, either input information or specific program information, provides more accurate and reliable computer system control functions.

All system control modules on the same serial data circuit use a communication process similar to a telephone system, where enormous amounts of information can be exchanged on a single data wire. The serial data circuit is used to communicate information between each system control module. Each system control module is assigned a specific recognition code, called a source ID. This code is used to identify which module is communicating on the serial data circuit. When a message is sent out on the serial data circuit , the recognition code will identify which particular module sent the message. These messages contain specific information, or commands, a system control module requires to function properly.

When a system receives a message it also "learns" the source ID of the system that sent it. This source ID is used to determine which system control module actually sent the message for State of Health (SOH) monitoring. SOH monitoring determines if a system control module is unable to communicate properly. Description and diagnosis of each system and control module is covered in the respective service manual section.

In conclusion, you can also reference TSB or technical service bulletin, 02-06-05-004a for further information on alarms and aftermarket devices which are causing other problems.


General Motors Engineering, in an effort to determine the root cause of catalytic converter damage, has determined that aftermarket alarm systems incorrectly installed in vehicles have the potential to cause misfire codes and damage to the converter. These alarm systems use a circuit interrupt which utilizes the ignition circuit on the vehicles.

These alarm systems utilize mechanical relays and normal vehicle movement can trigger these relays to engage and disengage the ignition circuit while the vehicle is in motion. These disruptions of the ignition circuit, which occur in milliseconds, may cause more fuel to be commanded. Over time, this dumping of fuel on and off again can cause misfire codes and ultimately damage the converter assembly.



Important

Engineering could not identify any alarms that utilize solid state circuitry that would eliminate this concern. Because of this, it has been determined that all alarm systems must be routed through the starter circuit in order to avoid this condition.



Dealers must be aware of this issue and take note of the wiring on vehicles with alarm systems that come in for repair, particularly for catalytic converter damage that seem to have no known root cause.

So, with all of this that has to be considered, it doesnt even take into the account of the column lock issue that has been plaguing c5. Because the column lock actuator is controlled by the BCM and the ignition key signal. That said, it is too complicated to effectively falsify all signals needed, based on the factual information given above.

Allthebest, c4c5

 

[Mike Mercury]

c4c5specialist; that's some cool info and describes what must happen for a trouble free remote start operation.

And there are systems to follow those quidelines - perfectly.

Engineering could not identify any alarms

But the post originator was not talking about aftermarket alarms... but just remote starters. And the key key on a C5 is to buy a system that remote starts only - and has no alarm feature as a part of it.

Posting typed text (possibly generated in the first years of teh C5 - 1997) is one thing, but actually doing the work with devices mfgrd within the past couple of years will give someone greater insight.

I wish I would of read in your post: "I have no hands on experience with remote systems, but here is what to look out for"... it's that simple and helpful.

All I originally asked (before the cult came down on me) was that "facts", or "common sense derived facts" or "good guesses" be labeled that way by the poster.

 

[c4c5specialist]

c4c5specialist; that's some cool info and describes what must happen for a trouble free remote start operation.

I wish I would of read in your post: "I have no hands on experience with remote systems, but here is what to look out for"... it's that simple and helpful.

Hi there,
Actually, I am Viper and Code-alarm certified to install their antitheft systems and remote starters.
I am also certified by GM to install their security systems that are sold over the counter.
I have had to remove too many installed by other technicians to justify making a few dollars, for lower reliability.
I do not, and will never install remote starters or aftermarket alarm systems in ANY Corvette.

As far as the membership here, they KNOW me enough to know that fact is all I deal with, nothing more, nothing less.
You are not aware of that, so with that, I understand your point of view. I will not continue a debate of ability and familiarity of components or structure of systems of remote starters. None go through the engineering that GM does for their vehicles and starting systems and NONE claim to.
You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to NOTHING BUT FACT in my service to Corvette and its owners. And I will NEVER take a back seat to anyone in that respect.
Allthebest, c4c5

 

[gcmlear]

Firstly C4C5 I am pretty new to corvettes but I have gotten a weatlth of knowledge from a number of your posts. thank you. I know you probably dont want to comment on other makes but as a knowledgable guess would you say your comment apply to all modern cars (like 03 accuras) thanks