Super T10 Gearbox

[brit_trader2003]

Hi folks,

I have a 69 which originally was a Manual (it still has a clutch pedal !) and has since had a TH350 Automatic Truck Gearbox installed. I am thinking of converting back to Manual and was thinking of a Muncie M22. A Mechanic suggested to me that Muncies were old, rare and difficult to get in a good condition. He suggested a Borg-Warner Super T10 which I understand was a successor to the Muncie. He said they were newer, stronger and easier to get in good condition (persumably cheaper as well).

I understand that this would not be numbers matching or remotely close but my car is not even close to being numbers matching anyway. (It will not either unless I spend an absolute fortune on it if it ever could) What I want is a Manual Gearbox which can withstand lots of power (another possible project of mine) and is mechanically sound and does not cost me a packet.

Anybody know about the Super T10, have any information or have any opinions on what I have related above ?
--------------------
1969 Coupe, 454, TH350 Auto, Side Pipes, Wire Wheels

 

[GTR1999]

BW ST-10 were used in late 74 to 81? They are a good transmission and a little stronger then the Muncies. They had better ratios for the street and will bolt in with the proper mounts. I believe that Summit or Jegs sell new units with a couple of ratio choices for aorund $1,300 but you're better off checking with them. Used ST-10's run between $300-$900 depending on condition and ratio. Muncies are easier to rebuild and parts are reproduced at a lower cost then the NOS ST-10 parts.

You should check www.5speeds.com to get more information. Since numbers matching isn't a concern then you might want to consider a 5 or 6 speed tranny to give you good launch and low RPM's on the highway. Cost for new units is around $3,000 though.

 

[Jack]

Hi folks,

I have a 69 which originally was a Manual (it still has a clutch pedal !) and has since had a TH350 Automatic Truck Gearbox installed. I am thinking of converting back to Manual and was thinking of a Muncie M22. A Mechanic suggested to me that Muncies were old, rare and difficult to get in a good condition. He suggested a Borg-Warner Super T10 which I understand was a successor to the Muncie. He said they were newer, stronger and easier to get in good condition (persumably cheaper as well).

I understand that this would not be numbers matching or remotely close but my car is not even close to being numbers matching anyway. (It will not either unless I spend an absolute fortune on it if it ever could) What I want is a Manual Gearbox which can withstand lots of power (another possible project of mine) and is mechanically sound and does not cost me a packet.

Anybody know about the Super T10, have any information or have any opinions on what I have related above ?
--------------------
1969 Coupe, 454, TH350 Auto, Side Pipes, Wire Wheels

Can't tell you much about muncie or b-w. We run a Richmond Super T-10 in our asphalt circle track car ... many others do so also. Trans is aluminum (weighs about 70 lbs without shifter), today's cost brand new about $1300-$1400. They are great trans ... very durable. www.richmondgear.com Many muncie/b-w have only bushings on first gear ... richmond is improved & comes with bearings throughout (except tailshaft). I know of several Richmond Super T-10 that have 3 or more seasons of brutal WFO with no failures ... I dunno of a one that broke without direct operator error ... even then, failures are rare.
JACK:gap

 

[Copdogcorvettes]

Well if it were me I would be looking at one of the newer 5 or 6 speed trany wit overdrive. These newer unit are about the same cost and you gain a lot with them. Since you are not looking for stock or matching number this would be the way to go for me. There are several threads on these trany here. I would think about it a lot before making any decision.


Gary

 

[BeaterShark]

I'd put in a T-10 if you are buying it used. If new, I'd pony up the extra $$ and get a Tremec (3550 or TKO, depending on torque requirements) 5 speed. I think it can be done for about $2200 compete (shifter, drivshaft, u-joints, etc). This will also give you an OD. The only thing I don't like about it is the huge gap between 1'st and 2'nd gears.

 

[brit_trader2003]

Many thanks for all of your replies, you have given me much to think on and sources of additional information to research. This is exactly what I was hoping for.

 

[brit_trader2003]

I have done abit more research and had some thoughts. My 69 has a 454 with Hood Scoop, Hooker Headers and Big Block Side Pipes. It is very noisy and I tend not to spend any great length of time at high speed as I would need ear defenders. So I am not sure I need an Overdrive. On the other hand with the power it could probably handle overdrive gear at lower speeds and the revs would come down.

It is already about 300 bhp with over 400 lb/foot torque and a compression ratio of only 7:1 as stock. I am thinking of ramping it up abit with a new camshaft and new piston heads to take it up to 450 to 500 bhp, god knows what that would do to the torque, 500 plus ? Anyway I am more concerned with a Manual Transmission that can handle that power and torque.

The engine sounds gorgeous and the car is more for posing and scaring pigeons than long distance cruising. I want the power for acceleration rather than high speeds.

Perhaps the Super T10 is the answer, anybody have any thoughts ?

 

[Jack]

454 with Hood Scoop, Hooker Headers and Big Block Side Pipes. very noisy and I tend not time at high speed as I would need ear defenders. So I am not sure I need an Overdrive. It is already about 300 bhp with over 400 lb/foot torque and a compression ratio of only 7:1 as stock.The engine sounds gorgeous and the car is more for posing and scaring pigeons than long distance cruising. I want the power for acceleration rather than high speeds. Perhaps the Super T10 is the answer, anybody have any thoughts ?

It seems you have little need for an OD ... the 4-speed is less expensive to buy and is less fragile than 5/6 speed. Richmond Super T-10 will readily handle more cam & compression ... also more HP & TQ.

I understand higher octane fuels are routinely available in UK ... more readily than in USA. With only 7:1 CR, I'm speculating your 454 may've come from a truck with a hydraulic flat tappet cam. Dunno if you have a budget or not ... I try to do things on a budget. You can throw lotsa money at aluminum heads & roller cam etc. My budget-conscious suggestion is to install a 4-speed and drive until the motor NEEDS major work. When it needs an overhaul do a complete one ... also replace pistons with higher-compression pistons ... retain & overhaul your heads without porting them ... replace cam with another hydraulic flat tappet cam having more lift & duration. Include new lifters, pushrods, rocker arms & valve springs. You'll need to verify exactly what cc volume your heads have BEFORE selecting pistons or cam ... I'm speculating your desired CR might be around 9.5:1. Cast/hypereutectic hi-comp pistons and a mild performance cam&lifter kit can be had in USA for less than $400. Additional 100 HP & TQ can easily be obtained if going from stock 7:1 CR to mildly-cammed 9-9.5:1 CR.
JACK:gap

 

[BTWard454]

I'd also recommend the Super T-10. I've heard of the 5/6 speeds breaking before when you put alot of power too them. I've got a 454 in a 81 and its paired up with a super t-10 from the factory. I've done about everything possible to the 454 to increase and still make it drivable. Right now, I'm pushing at least 530 horsepower, and I havent had any problems with the transmission at all. It seems to handle the power just fine, and I dropped the clutch many times at 4,500 RPM.....Now motor mounts are a different story.....One thing that you do need ot watch out for though if you intend on really upping your power is pay attention to your halfshafts, I've heard stories of them twisting in two before.

Brent

 

[brit_trader2003]

Many thanks for your thoughts.

My 454 came out of a 1979 Pick Up Truck. I have just experienced the head gasket blowing and there is probably some damage to the engine. So I am having to have the engine out and bits of the engine replaced before I had planned. Since it is coming out anyway I have thought that instead of replacing with stock I could replace with something that gives me abit more grunt. Exactly what I do will depend on the damage. I might even need a rebore. I have thought though of new piston heads to increase the cr as well as a new camshaft for starters. Nothing is going to be cheap but my budget is not unlimited.

Given that I am aiming at a 450 to 500 bhp car I have been worried about the transmission. My TH350 has just been recently pulled apart and rebuilt so is sort of new, also I want a Manual, so which is best. It looks like the Super T10 is the one. Many thanks for all of the comments and help.

 

[Jack]

My 454 came out of a 1979 Pick Up Truck. I have just experienced the head gasket blowing and there is probably some damage to the engine. So I am having to have the engine out and bits of the engine replaced before I had planned. I am aiming at a 450 to 500 bhp car I have been worried about the transmission. My TH350 has just been recently pulled apart and rebuilt so is sort of new, also I want a Manual, so which is best. It looks like the Super T10 is the one. Many thanks for all of the comments and help.

I think all BB auto trans vettes came with T400 (some sb vettes came w/ T350). Many will agree that T400 is a stronger trans than T350. Again, with budget in mind ... for the present I'd keep that fresh T350 right where it is. Get the motor apart & define just what you have and what is damaged beyond reasonable repair. Since your drivetrain hails from here & yon' ... I'd suggest checking both bore (4.250") & stroke (4.000") that'll verify it's a 454 or ? FYI ... either pistons or heads can raise CR ... in USA a new set of hi-comp pistons starts at about $300 plus whatever UK shop charges for boring cylinders ... in USA a new pair of hi-comp alum heads starts at about $1900. Also, if the block's decks need resurfacing (aka decking) ... that will also raise the CR. You'll need to know the finished deck height so you can select pistons/heads/cam ... so you end up with a CR that is useful. Once you have that info & some sort of budget in mind ... I'm sure there'll be plenty of suggestions for a plan.
JACK:gap

 

[Chris Kennedy]

I have the Richmond Gear 4-spd T-10 in my '81. Are all you guys who are commenting on the strength of this transmission commenting on the standard gear ratio model (same as factory) or the one with the first to third ratios that provides better acceleration? I have the latter unit, and its "strength" is rated a LOT lower by Richmond Gear. At some point I will likely put in a crate motor, and have been thinking about the Keisler sourced 5 spd w/overdrive.

--Chris Kennedy
Houston, Texas

 

[brit_trader2003]

The TH350 came out of the 1979 Pick Up Truck as well. UIn fact I do not think the engine and trans had been apart since 1979 until a few months ago. I agree, I was thinking of keeping the trans for the time being, mainly because of cost. The Drive chain is Vette and has been replaced with new although the Prop Shaft is also out of the Truck and so is probably heavy duty. The block Numbers confirm that it is a 1979 454 out of a Pick Up Truck but I do not know what has been done to it.

I was thinking of seeing what the damage was and seeing what has to be replaced before coming up with a plan of action on the upgrade. Will the TH350 cope with the extra power ?

Thanks for you help Jack. On a lighter note gas in the UK is at more than $7 to the gallon, it might be higher octane but when you are only doing 10 or 12 mpg it can get expensive ! ! !

 

[UKPaul]

brit_trader,
Hi, I replaced my TH350 with a 200-4r with OD (auto). It's the BEST thing I ever did to the Vette. Mine is also loud (dual 2 1/2" pipes, no cats & Monza mufflers) & having an OD has transformed driving it. It'll sit at motorway cruising speeds at between 2000 & 2500rpm, depending on traffic speed, & the exhausts are just burbling at those revs. Fuel consumption is vastly improved (how about in the high 20's for a long run?!!!) & the general feel of it is like it's a car built for modern traffic conditions. GM should have fitted OD trannys well before '82.
Whatever you do, give serious consideration to getting an OD fitted. It really does make a huge difference. And the exchange rate at the moment is very good for us Resale value? Numbers matching? I don't know about other people, but if I had the choice between a C3 with stock manual g/box & one fitted with a decent OD manual I know which one I'd jump at. And I wouldn't care what numbers were stamped on it. But I'm one of the people that's discovered the joys of an OD transmission in a C3!
Cheers

 

[brit_trader2003]

Thanks UKPaul. You say you are from South England, where in South England, I am from Kent ?

I have thought about an OD for easier Motorway cruising, quieter to, but I am concerned about power and torque. Is there a good OD Tranny which can handle 500 BHP and 500+ foot/lbs torque.

 

[UKPaul]

I live close to Junc 4 of the M3. Do you go to the Kent or Sussex Vette meets at all?
The tranny I got is a Level 2 which should handle about 450hp & lbft. There's a level 3 which'll take even more, but again, it's an auto. Going by forum members views over the last 3 years, I'd say that if you've got what's originally a manual C3 then go for a manual 5 or 6 speed. I've never taken much notice of the specs for a manual trans as I've got an auto, but there's plenty of people running 5 & 6 speeds behind BB's, hopefully somebody will post what they've got & how much power it'll take.
cheers