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Total Clutch Melt Down (Ram 700 and single mass flywheel

69MyWay

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2001
Messages
4,364
Location
Auburndale, Florida
Corvette
1969 Killer Shark
You may have seen on some other posts I made today that I had a severe clutch failure at Gainesville Speedway last night.


I have the RAM 700 and single mass flywheel mated up to the ZF 6 speed with 3.30 rear gears. I still can't believe the extreme that it failed.

I did a nice burn out and heated up the tires, staged the car. Brought the RPM to about 1,800 waiting on the final yellow to flash. Dropped the clutch, brought up the RPM, and nadda. I saw the tach swing past 6,000 RPM, and looked down to see like 12 mph on the speedo. No strange noise, smell, vibration, or anything.

I go through the gears to find it is all it can do to gain a hold in any of them and finally netted a 54 mph trap speed.

When I picked up my sorry time slip, I put it in first gear and let out the clutch. THE CAR DID NOT MOVE! So, I just let it sit in gear until it started to grab. It was like an auto trans with a bad pump.

I was able to get up to about 12 mph through the pits, and coast it on the trailer. By the time I hit the trailer, my clutch pedal "popped" and slammed to the floor not returning to the proper location.

The center of my trailer is open, so I got underneath for a look see. There was no hydraulic fluid leaking to explain the total loss of the pedal. There was finally a noticeable odor from the clutch disc. IN fact, at this time standing around the car all you could smell was the pungent burning odor of the clutch disc material.

I guess I won't really know until I open it up.

At this time I am undecided as where to go next. I only have 2 or 3,000 miles on the clutch, a handful of hard street races (all of which have been victorious!), and three autox events. I don't think even at that it should have gone away so bad. It also makes me wonder if my ET and trap speed was being compromised on the first three runs. Judging by -=Jeff=-'s ET and the fact are cars have like kind and quality hardware, this and my poor driving skills must explain why I did not strike the 12's last night.
 
LOL. Yeah Chris you need to get better 60' times :D

Anyway As I posted in the other thread I am going to a SPEC clutch.. they have 4 stages

Stage 1--Good upgrade from OEM, handles up to 400 HP
Stage 2--For cars with moderate upgrades, power adder, Kevlar Disc (around $480)
Stage 3--Available with Carbon which will handle 500+hp or Ceramic which will hold 600+ (carbon is $530)
Stage 4--For vehicles over 600 hp, not recommended for street use

I think I am going to go with the the Stage 2 and a Aluminum flywheel.

there are also guys that like the Mcleod clutches, most the street/strip version around $500, the street twin is around $900.

I hope to order mine within the next month or so.
 
Well Chris look at it this way

Didn't you hate that clutch anyway?

Sorry dude... that HAS to suck!


Vig!
 
Re: Well Chris look at it this way

vigman said:
Didn't you hate that clutch anyway?

Sorry dude... that HAS to suck!


Vig!

Yep, but, I am starting to think now that there could be something else going on.

Don't know if I mentioned it anywhere or not, but I found out yesterday when Ken was helping me get it off the trailer that the neutral saftey switch is out of order. In other words, the car won't start! The clutch pedal feels weird.

Maybe something else failed in the hydraulics that partially held the clutch down or something, smoked it up, then let go all together. The clutch may not have been the total failure, but is now toast due to being slipped so hard on the track, etc.

I will know soon. I will start yanking it open this week.
 
Bad news....

Hey Chris, I really hate to hear about the clutch, I don't know anything to chime in with there. I would recomend a Centerforce, but those CrackerHeads haven't answered my inquiries from several months ago.... Oh Yeah, I was wondering, how did Bro_Ken do, and did he get headed this away at a decent time this morning ? Steve-out.


:w
 
Hey Steve,

Bro_Ken is on his way to see you as I write this. I get the impression he was out and about before 9:00 this a.m.

Not sure yet what to do on the clutch until I open it up.

Ken was doing great for a firstimer. He racked up 109 mph which means he is building some great power.
 
109 mph.....

That definitely sounds like he is making some good power, and doing a good job of getting the car hooked ! I haven't seen his times, 1/4 mile or 60 ft. so I will assume he was close to a 12.9 or 12.8 ? Whatever you do with the '90,don't give up on that car, as it has a lot of potential ! BTW, your shark looked awesome in the pic's that Barb posted ! Man, I wish you and Nicki could make it up for the Mountain cruise in October ! The next time I come to Camp Blanding, I definitely want to get together with you and Nicki, and see the shark in person !


:w
Steve.:beer
 
We live between 15 and 20 minutes from Camp Blanding. We would love to see you there.

Can't make the GA October cruise, but we will be at OctoberVette in Kissimmee on Oct 12.
 
Bro_Ken's visit....

Hello Chris !
Well, this is the first chance I've had to log on, and I just wanted to see if anything has changed with your 90 Chris ? Bro_Ken left about 1045AM CST this morning, and we had a great time. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to take him every where that there were vette's to see, but one of the last things he said before he left was, "We need to save something for the next trip", I however responded by saying that, maybe I would be one of the first East Coaster's to drop in on him out there on the West Coast ! He is a really Cool Guy, and I'm afraid I talked his ear off, and didn't let him get a word in Edge Wise !


:w
Steve.
 
Ken is a great listener, which is a rare quality these days. He let me foam off at the mouth for hours.

I wish we had more time to hang out. Doing an autocross would have been a blast with his freaky Guldstrand suspension monster!

RAM has offered to upgrade my clutch for $65 (plus the shipping to and from).

I am considering it, but have not touched the car. I know you are getting pounded with rain right now as the storm inches closer. I feel bad for Ken driving right into the heart of the wet mess. I actually mowed the lawn in the rain after work today as I figure it is only going to get more wet by weeks end.


Stay dry and safe. You are welcome here if we are in any better safer location if the storm heads your way.
 
I guess you will find out when you get it apart, but it sounds like your clutch may not be re-adjusting properly... just an idea to look out for...
 
Safe Harbor !

Cool, Thanks Chris for the offer.
It's nice to know I could run that direction, and I would like to return the favor to you and Nicki, if that other storm, Lilo(?) turns to threaten you'all over there. Not bragging, but I have a three bedroom/two bath house, and I am bumping around in it all by myself ! With plenty of room for parking tow rigs/trailers and miscellaneous vettes that might get driven along !


:w
Steve.
 
Vettelt193 said:
I guess you will find out when you get it apart, but it sounds like your clutch may not be re-adjusting properly... just an idea to look out for...

What do you mean, not readjusting? In other words, are you talking about the hydraulics, or the pressure plate?

I have been making a mistake. I don't have a RAM 900, it is a RAM 700. The $65 rebuild they are offering converts it to a RAM 900 series on the flywheel side.

If it is not "readjusting", what should I look for when I open it up?

The strange thing is the fact that the neutral switch won't engage when I depress what is left of the clutch pedal. As far as I can remember that switch is built into the pedal assembly, not the actual clutch or trans.
 
Here is my theory, and it is only one of a million possibilities... Keep in mind I am a late C4 guy, and only know the basics on the old Vettes, and don't know what your set-up is exactly.... but here goes:

the clutch was put in, and it was doing ok, both the plate and disc were pressed together with the clutch out.... Your clutch is hydraulic, so it should re-adjust as it wears... basically, as a layer of clutch disc is worn off, it should adjust itself to be that much closer. (this is why hydraulic clutch systems have the same contact point no matter what the wear of the system is, unless it is too old to make it back into adjustment, but then you only have a few more miles left)... ok, so let's say that your clutch did not adjust itself... there was enough clutch touching for you to drive normally, but when you really put the power down at the track, it couldn't hold because the clutch wasn't really fully engaged... the reason why this theory works so well in your case is the lack of smoke and smell while driving... you didn't smell it because it was barely burning... only the very tip of the disc was burning off, not the whole thing... so you ran down the track, tried to go again, and nothing happened... why? because you just burned off that last bit of remaining clutch that would touch the pressure plate (but not the whole thing)... so, to make a long (ok, very long) story short, your clutch may be perfectly fine, just out of adjustment, because it isn't adjusting itself like it should.... since the pedal is on the floor, i would check the hydraulics first... you may find that it wasn't adjusting itself because air in the line, or something else really stupid like that.... hopefully it is easy, and won't require a new or rebuilt clutch.
 
Okay, I got you now. Maybe the hydraulic lines are going bad and they pinched some return fluid?

There was some noticeable smell after I got the car on the trailer, but no noticeable smell while sitting in the car or when it failed. So that would ring true with your theory.

Believe it or not, the 1989-1996 ZF six and clutch assembly is all basically the exact same. So, if it applies to a 96, it would also apply to a 90.

Also another clarification.

The pedal does return only on the spring tension that is in the pedal assembly. There is NO pressure on it all when depressing it. When at the track in the pits, I depressed the pedal and it POPPED and slammed on the floor. When the pedal came back up there was no pressure on it in either direction. This is of course after the slippage situation started on the track.
 
Right, i thought you were talking about your '69, (and since it is 69myway (or your way i should say), i thought you put a ZF in there... the fog is clearing now... lol) anyway, it sounds like the clutch is ok, but the hydraulics are (for lack of a better term) messed up. Now that i understand what car it is on (i am feeling really stupid now) You should check the connection between the master and slave cyl. That is a common failure point... (and if you have changed the master and or slave out, but didn't change out the connection, i would bet that as the problem) Also keep in mind that the clutch can leak inside the car, by your foot, and can leak far enough up that you won't feel it leaking... you have to feel your hand up there to check for fluid.
 
I will check that first.

As for now, I know that the resevior is full. I saw no leaks under the car on the slave, or on the lines. Plus, if the system did get air in, I would think I would not be able to disengage the clutch.

I guess tonight I will get her jacked up. I got to where I could yank the trans out of the 69 in less than an hour, and that included jacking it up, having a cold drink, and doing some channel surfing on the t.v. out in the shop!

I would bet the 90 will take me at least 2 hours to get it out on the ground.
 
Phase I report

Okay, the car is up in the air, exhaust is off, and the slave cylinder dangling off (line still connected).

Nothing strange yet underneath.....However.


The clutch master cylinder WAS BONE DRY. Hmmmm, on a reverse diaphram system (ZF 6 speed specialty), would that cause it to slip???????

Still nothing on the neutral saftey switch.

Taking a break to eat now, maybe hack at it some more when I finish.

Next phase is to get the torque U channel, drive shaft, and shifter boot off.

After that, the trans more or less will fall right out after taking it loose from the bellhousing.
 

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