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Trans Install Issue

VAroute66

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
66
Location
Virginia
Corvette
'66 Roadster
I am installing a Richmond 5 speed onto a ZZ502 with a lakewood bellhousing and Centerforce II Clutch. I aligned the clutch using the plastic alignment tool, and it is well aligned. The bronze pilot bearing/bushing is fully seated with its face flush with crank surface. So I line it up and the splines insert easily. The trans face and bellhousing face are perpendicular to ground and parallel with each other as measured by leveling tool. However, to my extreme frustration, the trans will not go the last 3/8 in. I jiggle and move it with no result. It is a solid sound no like something hard hitting something soft. If the trans input shaft were hitting the pilot bearing, I would likely see some dings in the bronze material. I don't see signs of contact, and the pilot bearing looks undamaged. Is the pilot bearing engaged with 3/8 in. still to go? Can't imagine I am bottoming out. I already took everything apart once to realign the clutch. The step I want to avoid is taking it apart again to see whats going on without the bellhousing. Any ideas or experience with anything like this? Thanks.



V/R

Dan
 
The transmission's front bearing retainer pilots in the clutch housing.

As you say it won't go the last 3/8-in and you imply the trans is centered since the input shaft is part way into the pilot bearing, since 3/8-in. is about the thickness of the bearing retainer, I'll guess the hole in the clutch housing is slightly smaller than the bearing retainer.

If you don't want to disassemble the parts again, you can try "pulling" the trans in place with the bolts. If it's just thick paint on the rim of the hole on the clutch housing, that technique will probably work but there is a caveat...you'll may not be able to separate the two if you ever have to pull the trans, again.

Also, if the hole in the clutch housing is actually too small, you're not good at feeling bolt tightness and you're not watching the ft. bearing retainer as it goes into the clutch housing, You risk breaking the mounting ears of the trans trying to pull it on with the bolts.

Now that I've told you the easy but risky fix, I recommend you remove the trans, remove the clutch housing and properly fit the two together off the car. You may need to clean the hole in the clutch housing. If the parts are right, you should be able to easily slide the clutch housing over the front bearing retainer.

Good luck.
 
Hib,

Thanks for responding. You bring up a good point. I did check the fit of the pilot bearing before I installed it so it should be good. I also used the plastic alignment tool to line up the friction disk. The tool slips in and out very easily. The splined part of the input shaft easily passes through the clutch housing and then the trans comes to a hard stop. I definitely won't risk the trans by pulling on it. If I cannot figure it out, I will disassemble and make a misereable science project out of it. I am baffled. I know that others have been successful doing this exact same install. This is my first time joining a transmission to a bell housing so I am really clueless. Thanks again.

V/R
Dan
 
You didn't understand my post. Read a little more slowly and carefully.

I was not talking about the pilot bearing.

I said that the transmission pilots on the hole in the clutch housing. If the hole in the clutch housing is smaller than the diameter of the front bearing retainer, the trans will not go in the last 1/3-3/8-in.

As I said earlier, you can try and pull it in with the bolts but that can be a dangerous short cut.

The right way is to remove the transmission and make sure the hole in the clutch housing is going to fit the front bearing retainer. My guess is: either the hole in the clutch housing has paint on it thick enough to reduce the I.D. just slightly, the hole in the clutch housing has a burr on it or the O.D. of the front bearing retainer has a burr on it.

There is, of course, the outside chance that the clutch housing or the front bearing retainer are defective, but that's less likely than the three alternatives listed above.

Good luck.
 
Hib,

You are absolutely correct. When you said clutch housing I did not get that you meant bellhousing register. In parallel I got on line with the Lakewood catalog and like you say, the bellhousing register diameter is too small for the bearing retainer housing. The 15000 bellhousing is for the smaller Muncie, hence the ringing when it made iin contact. They make a new 15080 that will fit for about $800. It looked close but who would have thunk. So now I have to figure out whether to get the bellhousing or trans input shaft housing machined. Since I was actually hitting the trans front bearing retainer housing nuts, I think I will have to machine the bellhousing register. Thanks again for the benefit of your knowledge.
V/R
Dan
 
Before you start chucking stuff up in your mill, why are you using a Lakewood housing?
Is this a race car you're building to rules which require scattershields?

Also, do not machine the trans front bearing retainer. If you're going to try machining, do the clutch housing.

Also, I don't understand the difference in clutch housings. I have a Richmond ROD (the six-speed version of your five-speed) in my 71 Coupe and it went right into a stock clutch housing which previously accepted a Muncie.

My ROD is 20 years old so maybe Richmond Gear has gone to a larger retainer, but I'd check with Richmond.

Also, I'm curious about your set-up. The Richmond five-speed is direct drive in high-gear with a very low first gear. Did you also change axle ratios and if so, to what ratio?
 
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Hib,

Actually the transmission is a DNE 5 Speed. The drawings for this 5 speed and the Richmond version show that the diameter of this bearing retainer is 4.683 in. The Lakewood has a diameter the exact same. I did not really choose the Lakewood bellhousing as it came with the engine when I bought it. When I took alignment readings, radial and parallel readings from the flywheel to the bellhousing surfaces I was out considerably on both. Becuase I thought it was the bellhousing that was out, I got another new cast aluminum CNC machined bellhousing and got the same readings. It was the block that was out. So I calculated the necessary angle to correct the misalignment and place shims between the steel Lakewood bellhousing and the plate that is installed between it and the engine block. I had to place 0.040 in of shimwashers at one bolt point to get it in. I got adjustable bellhouisng pins and got everything real close to spec. I used the steel bellhousing because I did not want to shim the aluminum, which would not have been as strong. I did not want to go racing, just wanted the extra strength because I had less contact to the block. I removed the trans bearing retainer, and it fits exactly into the bellhousing. It looks that I am off enough that the retainer will not go through the bellhousing. What does this mean? Maybe my bellhousing alignment is still off. Don't understand why since meaurements indicated otherwise. I think if I englarge the bellhousing register a little, it will go through, but what does that say about the alignment. Any thoughts or recovery recommenations are welcome. Thanks again for your help. Also, the rear is a 3.36:1 posi. Kind of steep first gear. The muncie I have is not much fun with the 327/300.

V/R
Dan
 
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Unfortunately many of the real Nash five-speeds had really crappy QC. The bushing transmissions are junk. The later roller bearing units are ok provided they were machined to print.

One of the first things Richmond Gear had to do when it bought the remaining parts and design out of the DNE bankruptcy was to start manufacturing all the parts to print.

As for the clutch housing issue, if you've measured the front bearing retainer and the hole in the housing to be the correct diameters yet the trans will not go in you've got me stumped.

Too bad the machining of the clutch housing face on the block was lousy, but your smart to try and get the hole in the CL of the hole in the clutch housing concentric with the CL of the rear main. If the CL of hole in the clutch housing isn't concentric, you end up with clutch release problems and shifting problems.

If you're not racing, I'd use a stock aluminum clutch housing. That's what I'm using in my 71 Cpe. When I put all that together years ago, all the centerlines were in the right places.
 
The DNE is a late 5 speed with roller bearings. The real alignment problem is not the radial because there are dowel pins that can be used to restore to center. The parallelism is a about 0.016 in. out while the requirement is 0.002. This block really seems to be designed for an automatic transmission which does not such tight tolerances. Richmond says that 0.005 would be OK, and I am below that. I am going to take it all apart again, redo all my bellhousing alignment measurements with the steel and CNC aluminum bellhousing. I will then make a decision to either machine the steel bellhousing register or just correct the radial misalignment and use the aluminum and see how it goes. I do not think the register is needed for alignment since if the bellhousing surface is parallel to the flywheel and the trans is installed flush with spec torque, it should align. I know how important alignment is, and it would be no fun to have a transmission that shifts hard and has a short life. Did you use a Scoggins Dickey adapter bracket for the clutch ball? That did not line up for me either since the nut for the ball stud interfered with the fit near the block. I had to get it welded to eliminate the nut and file the bracket. The bell housing need some grinding to get that bracket to mount as well.

V/R
Dan
 
This block really seems to be designed for an automatic transmission which does not such tight tolerances.
V/R
Dan

A block is a block, and none of them know whether they're automatics or manuals until the flywheel or flexplate is installed; all block machining is identical for all applications.

:beer
 
JohnZ,

I'm sure you are right, but this engine block does not even have provision for a clutch ball for a manual setup. Why would GM invest to machine a block for an alignment to within 0.002 and add a provision for a clutch ball for a manual setup if they could machine to something less for an automatic? My block was off by 0.012 in. Based on an angle of 0.1375 degrees, I had to place shims of 0.001, 0.010, and 0.017 using studs vs. bolts from bottom to top on each side of a heavy duty aluminum 621 replica bellhousing to get parallelism to within 0.002 in. McMaster Carr has shim washers that seem to be make for this correction. The radial position came in to within spec but could be improved by .007 offset dowel pins. I would like to know what kind of alignment other people get with their stock and aftermarket blocks. Also, notice whenever people and some OEMs talk about bellhousing alignment, it usually addresses radial position and skips parallelism. I could not find any instruction to correct this. Could be the source of mystery transmission shifting/performance problems. Next time I will take my chances with a Dart or Merlin Block and hope to get better. What do you think about having a gap of 0.017 in between a bellhousing an block? Most loading situation I can imagine put the bellhousing bolts in tension and not compression. I find it a little unnerving, but can't figure out technically why I should not do it. I am not racing and do not need an SFI bellhousing. For anybody interested, I think the best solution would have been to use a shimmed Lakewood without the block plate, but not sure if the height would be correct. I know the height is too great with the block plate on.


V/R
Dan


:beer
 

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