Viper gears in a Vette?

[Skant]

I'm having trouble with noisy whiney 4.10 gears. The shop replaced them with Dana 4.10 gears, which were guaranteed to be quiet. They weren't. Their source is willing to take them back. They recommended putting in the Viper 4.10 gears. So the shop has tracked down where to purchase the Viper ones from, and now they're working on getting a Viper carrier.

They're describing to me that the Viper 4.10 gears are larger. So they don't make the noises, where the 4.10 ring and pinions I've had had noise issues because the ratio forces the pinion to be too small (or some part of it is too small or something).

Okay... this all makes sense to me. I've heard from a lot of sources that the 4.10's wouldn't have any issues if the car had a larger carrier.

But here's my confusion...

I'm doing research on the matter myself and finding listings that show that the Viper and the Corvette (C4 manual) actually use the same carrier... something called either the Dana 44 V or Super Dana 44.

I've found posts here that talk about using the Viper gears and indicate that they'll work in the vette's carrier, but a little bit of the carrier has to be ground away to make clearance.

So what's the deal here? Are they different or not?

Originally, I thought the Dana 4.10's I was having installed to replace the noisy gears _were_ the same ones as the Viper. At least, I assumed that because they were Dana gears. But now I'm told this is not the case. The Viper ones are bigger.

Can anyone clear this up? Does the Viper have a different carrier or not? Are the Viper 4.10 ring and pinion different than the Data 4.10 ring and pinion for the C4 manual tranny Corvette? If the viper gears are larger, are they larger enough to not whine in 4.10?

Thanks in advance!

- Skant

 

[Skant]

I've learned a little more about this. Apparently, there are (at least) two variants of the Dana 44. They are the 3 Series and the 4 Series.

Dana switches from one case to the other at 3.92 ratio. As I understand it, the cases are externally the same. I've heard it two different ways on the difference... either it allows for a larger pinion, or it moves the ring gear closer to the pinion so that it doesn't have to be so thick (and it's the big difference between the ring and pinion sizes that produces the noise?).

The 3 Series carrier is designed for 3.07 - 3.73. And the 4 series is for 3.92 or 4.09 and up. A 4.11 that goes into a 3 Series is beyond spec.

The reason the Viper plays into it is because... even though it typically comes with 3.07 gear ratio, they do have a 4.11 option. So Dodge has a part number for it. Chevy has never used that, so it's not available through them.

So all of this seems to make sense. The last question then is... is a 4.11 in a 4 series carrier actually quiet?

- Skant

 

[Mad-Mic]

when you say noisey whine what do you mean? unbearable with the windows down or radio on normal for driving? ie not full blast or windows up with no radio?


most rears whine when you go smaller gears. if these are straight cut gears they will whine noticably louder than stock gears. angled cut gears are more quiet. personally i think you will have the same problem with either carrier. gear ratio will not change unless the gears are different. ie bigger or smaller pinion or bigger or smaller ring gear to achieve the same 4.10 ratio

if you want the gears it might be something you will have to live with unfortunatly.

there are ZR1 guys here that run the so called Viper gears and i think some have reported the same problem. might want to do a search on it.

 

[garycr14]

David, I think you need a louder exhaust, then you wont here the gears! I should have road in your car with you at the last autoX, so I would know what you are talking about as far as noise is concerned. I don't have experience with the 4.11's, so I can't give much useful input, but when you're making a race car, you have to live without some of the creature comforts. I know this has been a long project without the results you were hoping for, I hope the situation improves. Good luck, Gary

 

[G Winter]

From all the math I have done , it appears My 90 has 4.10 or 4.11 gears in it . This is the way I purchased the car. My understanding is that the 4.10 gears were not available option . Have 6 speed and convertible btw. I can not complain about gear noise at all. I here the 6 speed whine but can't say I hear the diff. at all and I have the stock , very quiet exhaust system on it .
My point is , someone must be able to make the 4.10 gears run quiet .

 

[Skant]

I've heard from quite a few people now who have actually had the procedure done that 4.10's in the Super Dana 44 shouldn't be noisy.

I've taken the car to some other places including a rear end speciality shop, and I am told that the level of noise this rear end is making is not normal, even for a 4.10 and especially not for a Dana 4.10 in a Super Dana 44.

As the rear end specialty shop explained it to me, in a lot of rear ends, a 4.10 ratio would be extreme and noisy. But the ring and pinion in a Super Dana 44 are huge... much larger than even the regular Dana 44 which is often used in 4x4 vehicles with 4.56 or even higher ratio.

What I've been finding out over time is that my car has had a noisier driveline than normal even for a corvette with a ZF6. Initially, the greater noise was because the sound proofing over the center console wasn't installed correctly... the second shop corrected that, and wow what a difference.

For the longest time, I had thought the noise level was normal because I had heard so much about how noisy the ZF6 was. But my case was abnormally loud. As the second shop put it, "It sounded like the tranny was sitting in your lap!"

I seem to be finding the same thing for my 4.10 installations. It's not a tiny amount of noise I'm complaining about. I have a $1500 stereo system in this car with dual 10" subwoofers in a custom box in the back, and it's not enough to drown out the whine. Neither is rolling down the windows. Having the windows down _and_ the stereo blasting enough to hurt my ears, I can almost drown it out completely.

The rear end speciality shop says that my first 4.10's were noisy because they were an aftermarket gear designed entirely for extra strength (like the Richmonds). The Dana 4.10's should have been quiet, but the shop that installed those did not believe that a break-in procedure was needed, so the rear end specialty shop think the gears got burnt because the car was immediately taken up to 80mph on the freeway during the test drive after installation.

So it's looking like my next move is to have it redone again... PROPERLY... and with a PROPER BREAK-IN...


At least the work that's been done has actually made a difference in this gear noise sound now. The first shop had been adamant that the sound was coming from the tranny, so I spent many thousands of dollars on replacing the tranny _THREE TIMES_ to no effect whatsoever. Changing the ring and pinion again hasn't stopped it from being noisy, but it has altered the specific symptoms and the sound quality of the noise. So we're at least throwing money at the right part of the car now... between this and more research, I'm actually feeling quite confident that this will ultimately work. I just have to find a shop that will do the job properly. And I believe I have found one.

-Skant