What makes a frame off so expensive?

[firstgear]

I had prevsiouly posted under the wanted/for sale about the going prices for a 61/62 (http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42655).

I am first to admit in this arena that I am naive....there were several comments about the "expense" of a frame off. I didn't get the 61/62 but ended up with a pretty nice 60. I am more than willing to count my labor as labor of love.....meaning FREE. I know it isn't...but I am not counting it that way....so help me with the rest of the expenses associated with a frame off. I am not planning on ending up with a NCRS car....but one that has been solidly put back together along with "modern updates".....Meaning perhaps the front changed out with the Jim Meyers front spindle/disc brake etc conversion.....possibly a nice small block (LS1?????)....seats and steering wheel that let a tall big guy sit in the car with out steering from his belly (haha).

So....those that are in the know....please share with me...I am planning on spending 2 days at Corvettes at Carlisle talking to vendors and those that have already gone down this path.

let me know....regards, Herb

 

[Vanity Plate Bob]

firstgear. I'm sure as soon as the gang gets back from cruising you will be blessed with numerous replies.
There are some great pictures of frame offs here on the site.
Good luck

 

[67HEAVEN]

firstgear,

One of the great inevitabilites in a body-off project is the "since-I'm-already-in-there-I-may-as-well-itis".

For evidence of same........... www.67HEAVEN.com

 

[John Mcgraw]

Herb,

The labor is a large component of a good body-off restoration and you can save substantially by providing the labor yourself. That being said, If you are not a paint and body man, then a lot of the savings go away. If you are not a capable of doing upholstery, then you lose some more. The list goes on and on and each trade that you have to farm out cuts into your labor savings. Parts are expensive and so is chrome work. It is not at all out of line to have 3-5K of chrome work on a full frame off restoration. I perform all tasks myself except for chrome work, and will allways have at least 15K of hard money in a correct C1 restoration.
I am doing a 59 right now with a latemodel drivetrain in it, and expect to have in excess of 40K hard money in it on top of the original purchase price of the car.
Doing a complete car form the ground up is allways expensive whether you are going the "correct restored" route or the modified route. You just have to be realistic about this and save money wherever possible, but it is just not possible to do a low budget frame off restoration. If you go into this thinking you can do a ground up restoration of the car for 10K, then you will be sitting with a car torn apart a couple of years from now and out of money. You can put together a pretty good budget for the job by adding up all the parts you think that you will need, and add in all the contracted work that you will need. (paint, chrome, upholstery, ect). After you have all these numbers add at least 50% for the things that you missed or didn't think about, and you will have a pretty good idea what it will cost. I have a friend who pays to have his C1 cars restored, and he tells me that he has never got out for less than 30K not including the original purchase price of the car.
I have been building my own cars for over 30 years, and got in over my head on several cars when I was younger, but I take a more systematic, disiplined approach to the process now days, and usually don't miss my mark by much.
Regards, John McGraw

 

[firstgear]

thanks John....good comments....I have access to all the paint labor and even the paint for free......there is one section on the right front fender that I need to patch.....i was planning to do this myself.....or at least attempt it....and I being crazy thinking I have never done this before and that I can do it now?

I have never attempted something like this before, so it is virgin territory!

I realize that before you know it you are in over your head and the $$$ are out of control.....some help for where the big money suckers are on a project like this are at would be helpful!

 

[Dave65]

In addition to what John said about parts, how well equipped is your shop and how big is your shop? A dismantled car takes up a lot of room plus you need working room. Do you have a good air compressor, bead blast cabinet, press, welding equipment, air tools, paint sprayer, buffing equipment, pullers, etc, in addition to the normal mechanics tools? If not you will need to acquire atleast some of them. The more and better equipment you have the less time it will take, the better the results will be and the less frustrating it will be.

Good luck. Remember there is no problem you will run into that $100 bills won't solve . Make certain you have a nice stack of them ready.

Dave


It helps a lot if the wife like the Corvette and the project (mine does).

 

[firstgear]

In addition to what John said about parts, how well equipped is your shop and how big is your shop? A dismantled car takes up a lot of room plus you need working room. Do you have a good air compressor, bead blast cabinet, press, welding equipment, air tools, paint sprayer, buffing equipment, pullers, etc, in addition to the normal mechanics tools?

It helps a lot if the wife like the Corvette and the project (mine does).

we have an 8+ car garage....and my gal is wanting to help, also she has her own C5 and encourages me with the vettes..........have bought many pneumatic tools....getting a compressor and other equipment.....

 

[Dave65]

we have an 8+ car garage....and my gal is wanting to help, also she has her own C5 and encourages me with the vettes..........have bought many pneumatic tools....getting a compressor and other equipment.....

Good start. You asked why it is expensive .

Dave

 

[DRTH VTR]

we have an 8+ car garage....and my gal is wanting to help, also she has her own C5 and encourages me with the vettes.

Lucky man... She sounds like 'a keeper'!

 

[Mac]

Aside from the labour costs, the main reason the body-off frame resto costs so much is because it's the largest project you'll ever do for a car. It is the collection of every small project brought together in one. Going "factory correct" is worse because every screw has a cost, every bolt has a cost and the totality is expensive.

Before you start tearing things apart, HAVE A PLAN OF ACTION. There are many here who have experience that will freely provide wonderful advice but the most important thing is to have a cohesive plan.

-Mac

 

[JohnZ]

I've done seven Corvette body-off restorations in the last 40 years, and learned a lot in the process; have also built four street rods, three Cobras, and a tube-frame Grand Sport, plus two Ferrari partial restorations. All it requires is experience, LOTS of tools and equipment, dedication, motivation, piles of money, a well-developed network of friends for help, advice, parts and specialized services, inviolate space you can dedicate for a couple of years, lots of spare time not encumbered by family obligations, a supportive wife that isn't jealous of your time and your cars and doesn't mind "all that junk" in the garage that makes her car sit outside in the rain, snow, and ice all year around, the ability to develop a comprehensive sequential project management plan for the car and the discipline to stick to the plan (and not change the objective for the car in the middle of the project), and the ability to develop a realistic budget for the project (which will be at least three times what anyone else tells you it'll cost, especially from those who have never done a real body-off restoration before). Did I mention time, money, motivation and discipline?

Nuthin' to it!

 

[67HEAVEN]

I've done seven Corvette body-off restorations in the last 40 years, and learned a lot in the process; have also built four street rods, three Cobras, and a tube-frame Grand Sport, plus two Ferrari partial restorations. All it requires is experience, LOTS of tools and equipment, dedication, motivation, piles of money, a well-developed network of friends for help, advice, parts and specialized services, inviolate space you can dedicate for a couple of years, lots of spare time not encumbered by family obligations, a supportive wife that isn't jealous of your time and your cars and doesn't mind "all that junk" in the garage that makes her car sit outside in the rain, snow, and ice all year around, the ability to develop a comprehensive sequential project management plan for the car and the discipline to stick to the plan (and not change the objective for the car in the middle of the project), and the ability to develop a realistic budget for the project (which will be at least three times what anyone else tells you it'll cost, especially from those who have never done a real body-off restoration before). Did I mention time, money, motivation and discipline?

Nuthin' to it!

Next question!!!!

 

[Tom Bryant]

Well, at least now I know why my '59 has been apart for over 30 years.

 

[Ol Blue]

About 4 years ago I did a body off on a 64 Corvette, with almost all work done by myself, my son and a good friend with a big garage and lots of tools. The total cost for frame, front and rear suspension and running gear was around $6,000. That included powder coating and using all new bolts with the correct markings. The only thing outsourced was powdercoating, engine machine work, differential and steering box. Those costs are included in the $6,000. I didn't keep track of the hours, but it took a couple of years of weekends and some evenings.

I can't bring myself to talk about the costs to restore a completely beatup 68 L88 IMSA racecar in 6 months for the Monterey Historics (that I was 4 days too late.. ) using lots of outside sources.
Ol Blue
http://www.knology.net/~corvettes/Alspaugh-68Racer

 

[Tom Bryant]

That '68 is beautiful. Do you have more pictures?

 

[Ol Blue]

IMSA Corvette Racer

Thanks Tom
It was my cousin's car and he raced it in the late 60's and 70's at Daytona, Sebring and Road America.
I have pictures all thru the entire restoration, but just never got them on the web. I also have a couple of scrap books of it's racing history. but only one picture viewable on the web. Although the body was beat-up in almost every panel, we repaired them instead of rebodying with new. Somehow it wouldn't seem like "the racecar" if it was rebodied.

I was sanding the car in the rain under a tarp and finally gave up and took it to a friends body shop since I was under the gun to get it finished in time for the Monterey Historics. I also took them the scrap book. I took it in on a Tues night. I went over to the shop at 6:30 Friday night to look in the window to see what they had done. Much to my suprise, the doors were open and I could see the roll cage thru the paint booth window. It rolled out at 9:30pm on Friday night!! You can see the magic 3 day sows ear to silk purse here, AMAZING!!! Good friends, great bodymen and painters!!
http://www.marckerr.com/vet/

This picture was taken at the 1975 24 hours of Daytona race, where it was the 3rd highest placing Corvette to finish all 24 hours. It was clocked at 187 on the back straight powered by an L 88 engine. That was before they put the chicane in the back straight. There were lots more cars racing back then too. Traffic was terrible and it was hit in the rear by a Camaro who lost its brakes, but still it still finished the 24 hours.
http://www.corvettekid.com/USA_WON/68imsadaytona.gif

In 1974 the car had telemetry monitoring RPM, oil and water temp with a radio to the pits. I think it was the first race car to use telemetry. One of the pit crew worked for a company that was developing telemetry for race cars and used this car as a test bed. The telemetry box was about a foot square!!! Unfortunately, I don't have it, but do have factory literature and advertisements featuring the car.

A briefcase that came with the car had a set of original decals, even the stars, that I had copies made and my son put them on according to the early pictures. There was even a t-shirt with the Alspaugh's USA Racing Team on it. These were given to the pit crew.
http://www.knology.net/~corvettes/USARacing.jpg

http://www.knology.net/~corvettes/68rearclose.jpg

Thanks again for the nice words.
Ol Blue
Original Owner of "Ol Blue"
http://www.knology.net/~corvettes/63vett.jpg

 

[Tom Bryant]

I'd give about anything to have a real old racer with history like yours. You are to be commended for restoring the original panels. I can see it was a lot of work but well worth it.

Tom

 

[firstgear]

Lucky man... She sounds like 'a keeper'!

She really is a keeper.....she spoils me something fierce....and I find that I want to spoil her back just so that she keeps spoiling me....actually was her that got me going on the corvettes.....one year for Christmas present she bought both of us Level 1 driving class out at Bragg Smith in Nevada for 3 days.....was the most awesome time I have ever had.....and something I will not forget either...

She is a keeper!!!

Herb

 

[BLACK MOON]

'Firstgear'
I'd suggest doing a spreadsheet of the different sections of work needed including a section or sheet for tools. Have a column for parts, labor, 'sub' labor, modifications/ additions (a/c, 5 speed, new motor, power windows, disc brakes, etc) and don't forget tax and shipping. Drop me an email if you want to see mine.

Next pick up the catalog of a good supplier such as 'Zip' or 'Paragon' and go thru it highlighting all the parts you know you need and the ones you think you may need. That will be a good start.

I suggeat a good compressor ($500- $1200), a bead blasting cabinet ($250- $1,000) (or 2 if you don't like changing media), a polisher on a stand ($125), a press ($100), a good engine lift and hoist ($300), 2 floor jacks and several jack stands. I bought many of my tools from 'Harbor Freight and Northern'. These are the basics that I feel you have to have if you want to save some money and time.

Email me if you need help.
Good luck,
Sal

 

[Dave65]

I agree with Black Moon about setting up a spreadsheet. However I suggest you use the Long Island Corvette catalog and part number as the basis for your inventory system. During my restoration I have ordered (or plan to order) about 900 individual parts. By using the LIC number of the basis of the inventory I can quickly tell if I have ordered it yet or not and it helps keep me from getting confused and ordering something twice.

You can order it from whoever you want but control the inventory using the LIC number.

The first columns of my spreadsheet are:

LIC Section
LIC Description
LIC Part number
Ordering Vendor Name
Ordering Vendor Part number
Units
Unit Cost
Total Cost
...etc.

my 2 cents.

Dave