The Usual Cause of Slow Or No Cranking

[toobroketoretire]

The lousy OEM 2 gauge aluminum block-to-frame ground cable is the usual cause of slow or no cranking and is the reason why thousands of starters get needlessly replaced every year. G.M. saved a few cents by using those lousy aluminum cables with aluminum ends but down the road they ALL will fail because of corrosion building up inside the terminals. The problem is those cables look perfect from the outside so nobody suspects they are the cause of slow or no cranking. I highly recommend replacing your aluminum OEM cable with a 18" long 4-gauge COPPER cable with COPPER ends. About $6 to $7 and available even at Walmart.

 

[dougelam]

The lousy OEM 2 gauge aluminum block-to-frame ground cable is the usual cause of slow or no cranking and is the reason why thousands of starters get needlessly replaced every year. G.M. saved a few cents by using those lousy aluminum cables with aluminum ends but down the road they ALL will fail because of corrosion building up inside the terminals. The problem is those cables look perfect from the outside so nobody suspects they are the cause of slow or no cranking. I highly recommend replacing your aluminum OEM cable with a 18" long 2-gauge COPPER cable with COPPER ends. About $6 to $7 and available even at Walmart.

How would YOU test for this?

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[LLC5]

The lousy OEM 2 gauge aluminum block-to-frame ground cable is the usual cause of slow or no cranking and is the reason why thousands of starters get needlessly replaced every year. G.M. saved a few cents by using those lousy aluminum cables with aluminum ends but down the road they ALL will fail because of corrosion building up inside the terminals. The problem is those cables look perfect from the outside so nobody suspects they are the cause of slow or no cranking. I highly recommend replacing your aluminum OEM cable with a 18" long 2-gauge COPPER cable with COPPER ends. About $6 to $7 and available even at Walmart.

Dougelam brings up a good point. What would your proper test procedure include for testing this slow cranking problem? And this CANNOT be just a visual of the cables, but a proper scientific, SAE, factory GM, etc, approved test.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

How would replacing a starter overcome a bad ground cable?

 

[dougelam]

AGAIN he assumes the the rest of the world makes the same dumb-ass mistakes that he makes!

In Grand Rapids Michigan we have a lot of gearheads AND auto mechanics, most 2nd and 3rd generation!
We all know each other or are aware of them and how their garage takes care of their customers.

After 28 years of schooling, training seminars, meeting at the lot on Friday nights and just plain talking to people I've run into a couple of guys like toobroke that are not part of the mainstream repair scene and EVERYONE one of them made the same ass-in-9 statements like us "skilled techs didn't know what he knew and it was our first day in the job"

Just my opinion

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[Antz81]

How would YOU test for this?

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Measure the voltage across the cable during cranking.

at first I thought too broke had invented another problem but it seems he's right, Gm did start using them in 1972 (at least that's what it said on the ncrs thread that I found). Not sure when they stopped but I assume they have since using aluminium cables on a car is a stupid idea.

 

[LLC5]

AGAIN he assumes the the rest of the world makes the same dumb-ass mistakes that he makes!

In Grand Rapids Michigan we have a lot of gearheads AND auto mechanics, most 2nd and 3rd generation!
We all know each other or are aware of them and how their garage takes care of their customers.

After 28 years of schooling, training seminars, meeting at the lot on Friday nights and just plain talking to people I've run into a couple of guys like toobroke that are not part of the mainstream repair scene and EVERYONE one of them made the same ass-in-9 statements like us "skilled techs didn't know what he knew and it was our first day in the job"

Just my opinion

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Way too many out there like that. Some may call it Darwinism, but people like that can be dangerous to the just plain innocent.

Damn Antz81, now he may be able to figure where to start.

 

[toobroketoretire]

Slow Or No Cranking

After I started the thread I realized the title should have been "A Common Cause For Slow Or No Cranking". As I could edit the content but not the title it had to remain as-is. The point is that aluminum ground cable should be replaced no matter how good it looks because the corrosion is in the inside and that corrosion causes massive resistance to current flow.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I like the flat braided copper ground straps.

Tom

 

[Antz81]

I like the flat braided copper ground straps.

Tom

I like welding cable

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

I like cheese.

 

[bill81vette]

I like cheese and crackers with my beer!!!!

 

[SVO]

In my experience, where the ground cable connects to the frame can be a problem at times. It's in a exposed position where it gets splashed by the left rear wheel. I clean this connection from time to time and after the cable end is bolted up tight to the frame, I smear a light coat of silicone grease over the cable end and the area of the frame around the connection.

Factory aluminum battery cables - Again, in my experience, where problems arise with the cables is usually when people cut off the factory ends and replace them with a repair clamp. That always a problem area with a repair clamp. If there is a problem with the cable, it usually shows up as a swelled up area under the cable jacket. It's the positive cable that's a pain to inspect, since it runs down the transmission tunnel under the tunnel insulation pad. It's also a pain to replace. The other thing is there isn't a generic positive cable available, due to it's 95-96 inch length.

Also, if the aluminum ground cable is problematic, then the positive cable should be also. Replacing one cable only addresses half the potential problem.

If one suspects that there is a problem with the starter, most parts houses will test the starter for you, usually for free. If you just blindly replace the starter when having problems, well, shame on you for not fully checking it all out.

2/0 welding cable, with the proper end clamps makes an excellent battery cable.

Problems with aluminum wire lies in the end connections, especially when connecting to copper wire. All your major power transmission cables is made using aluminum.

With that, I'm out of here. It's Beer Friday and I hear a cold Shiner Bock calling me.

 

[Antz81]

I like cheese and crackers with my beer!!!!

Whisky goes works well too

 

[LLC5]

Whisky goes works well too

Indeed it does.

Looks like "toobroke's" diagnostic skills end at making ridiculous claims. Or maybe his Google search just takes a little longer to ramp up..........

 

[kpic]

I highly recommend replacing your aluminum OEM cable with a 18" long 2-gauge COPPER cable with COPPER ends. About $6 to $7 and available even at Walmart.

Copper cable is good; copper end connectors are not so good. There is a metal displacement reaction between copper and lead. The lead sulfate is the white "stuff" we see on batteries.

Borrowed from a HS chemistry forum:
The equation: Pb(NO3)2(aq) + CuSO4(aq) → PbSO4(s) + Cu(NO3)2(aq) Lead(II) sulphate (PbSO4) is a white crystal or powder. Appearance white solid Density 6.29 g/cm³ Melting point - 1087 °C, Solubility in water 0.032 g/100 mL (15 °C) and 0.0425 g/100 mL (25 °C)

I like the flat braided copper ground straps.

Tom

Flat tinned copper braid doesn't corrode as easily as copper braid. As a Ham operator, I use it for 2 reasons. The first is it doesn't tarnish as copper does when exposed to the elements. Second, unlike electricity, radio frequency (RF) travels on the outside.

"Tinned copper is an easy and effective way of keeping a copper conductor from tarnishing, from becoming oxidized. You've probably seen copper when it is oxidized. It turns green. The Statue of Liberty is a famous example of copper oxidation. The real problem is the fact that this green copper oxide is a semiconductor. This is bad news on top of a really good conductor like copper. There are two ways to prevent copper oxide. One is to put something over the metal to prevent air from reaching it. No air, no oxide, no corrosion. However, if you strip off this layer (usually plastic) that leaves the conductor in contact with air and in danger of oxidizing. Then you might have to use a connector that also seals out air. Soldering wires helps seal in the copper. Other connectors, such as many data connections, are "insulation displacement". This only makes contact in one specific place on the wire and the wire on either side is still covered with plastic insulation. The other way to prevent copper oxide is to put a layer of tin on the conductor. Then, even with the insulation stripped away, the air is much less likely to get to the copper and cause oxide to form."
In Defense of Tinned Copper

 

[dougelam]

I remember my first time checking for a "no tail/brake lights" on a 1977 Impala after checking the fuses I opened the trunk to find the wires dicinerated at the connector,

yep aluminum
And there was no repairs available
That was the start of my electrical portion of automotive

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[Hib Halverson]

I don't think aluminum battery cable, per se, is a big problem as long as the cable run is not that long because aluminum is not quite as good a conductor as copper. I agree with "toobroketoretire" that the connectors on battery cables can be problematic in that once they start to corrode, the corrosion can work its way up the cable, under the insulation.

Another Corvette-specific electrical problem, IMO, is that GM used a short little cable to connect the neg. battery post to the frame right under the battery box. On my 71 BB, I replaced both battery cables with thick welding cable and soldered connectors running from the battery all the way up to the engine.

That cabling with an Odyssey battery and a McLeod starter have been on the car for years. I don't have trouble with starters or starting.

 

[Antz81]

I don't think aluminum battery cable, per se, is a big problem as long as the cable run is not that long because aluminum is not quite as good a conductor as copper.

Normally the lower conductivity would be overcome by increasing the cable size.

, I replaced both battery cables with thick welding cable and soldered connectors

A properly crimped connection is superior to a soldered connection. But soldering will still do the job. Most people probably don't have access to a large enough crimper for doing battery cables either.

 

[toobroketoretire]

How would YOU test for this?

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Because of it's location it's virtually impossible to test. When cranking the engine the terminals will get hot because of the internal resistance. For the paltry $6 to $7 for a new 4 gauge copper cable with copper ends it's just not worth keeping that lousy aluminum cable on your C3. As far as I know the whole G.M. lineup used those crappy aluminum cables because they cost a few cents less.