Question: Castrol 'edge' vs Mobil 1. . . ?

[killain]

I see the ads on teley about Castrol 'Edge' being 8X better than Mobil-1. Any thoughts about this claim? I don't see anything wrong with Mobil 1 and how do you engineer a better oil than what Mobil has done?

 

[njlouc]

that is a great question.
I had the same thought after the TV ads. I guess the first place to start is to find out if it has the same or better GM certification.

 

[jrose7004]

Think with your dipstick Jimmy!

 

[njlouc]

I compared the info on the Mobil 1 website and the Castrol Edge website.
Castrol edge says: " Castrol Edge CLAIMS to meet more specs. than Mobil1 Extended Performance incl. Ford WSS M2C929-A; GM 4718M and GM 6094M"
They say that they claim to meet... as though someone else was writing the answers.
My owner's manual says GM 4718M.

They also say that it has a 15000mi / year change interval compared to Mobil 1.

Needless to say that the marketing people are either poor writers or weasily.
They are concerned about "wear" but most Corvettes are more concerned with temperature range.
All they have to say is it meets XXXX specs and thats it!!
I guess i have to look at a bottle.

 

[Patman]

It's sad really, but Mobil 1 is not as good as it used to be. It's been on a downward trend ever since Exxon took over, and now it's all about the profits, so they are cutting back wherever then can in order to make the allmighty dollar.

The oil analysis reports I've seen with Mobil 1 have steadily shown higher engine wear over the last couple of years, so this isn't new news to me, I've known about it for a while.

 

[njlouc]

They really make you work for it. There is a Castrol Edge product data page. Here is a part of it :

Available Grades
• SAE 5W-30: is the most recommended grade in today’s new cars. Exceeds all car and light truck manufacturer’s warranty requirements for the protection of gasoline, diesel and turbocharged engines where API SM, SL, SJ or CF is recommended. Exceeds European ACEA: A1/A5, B1/B5; GM 6094M; GM 4718M; Ford WSS M2C929-A and all requirements of ILSAC GF-4 for API Certified Gasoline Engine Oils and meets Energy Conserving Standards.

• SAE 10W-30: is the leading consumer grade. Exceeds all car and light truck manufacturer’s warranty requirements for the protection of gasoline, diesel and turbocharged engines where API SM, SL, SJ or CF is recommended. Exceeds European ACEA: A1/A5, B1/B5; GM 6094M; GM 4718M and all requirements of ILSAC GF-4 for API Certified Gasoline Engine Oils and meets Energy Conserving Standards.

It looks ok to me. might be pretty good. Mine uses GM 4718M.
I wish they would do better marketing/ info.

 

[Hib Halverson]

(snip)

The oil analysis reports I've seen with Mobil 1 have steadily shown higher engine wear over the last couple of years, so this isn't new news to me, I've known about it for a while.

I was wondering if you could post some of these oil analysis reports you have showing the degradation of Mobil 1.

 

[killain]

I was wondering if you could post some of these oil analysis reports you have showing the degradation of Mobil 1.

I think the reports are necessary as the factory fill for :
Corvette and corvette ZO-6
All Bentley vehicles
Mercedes Benz AMG & Mercedes Benz SLR Mclaren engines
All porsche vehicles
Chrysler 300C SRT-8
Dodge Viper & charger SRT-8
All Holden vehicles
Nissan GT-R
Pontiac Soltice GXP
Saab 9-3 TTid
Veuxhall VXR8
Mitsubishi Evolution and Lancer Evolution FQ400
Opel GT
All Cadillac vehicles
Bristol fighter and Bristol fighter 8
Acura RDX
Aston Martin DB9 & DBS
Chevrolet trailblazer SS
Chevrolet cobalt SS S/c coupe
Saturn Sky Red Line

and more manufactures, but. . .

Are all these engineeres and companies willing to use an inferior motor oil?

 

[Patman]

I was wondering if you could post some of these oil analysis reports you have showing the degradation of Mobil 1.

Just check out the used oil analysis section on the forums at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php and there are quite a large number of Mobil 1 oil analysis results on there.

You'll notice a trend once you go through a bunch of them, and that is the fact that Mobil 1 shows much higher iron levels than other oils do.

 

[Patman]

I think the reports are necessary as the factory fill for :
Corvette and corvette ZO-6
All Bentley vehicles
Mercedes Benz AMG & Mercedes Benz SLR Mclaren engines
All porsche vehicles
Chrysler 300C SRT-8
Dodge Viper & charger SRT-8
All Holden vehicles
Nissan GT-R
Pontiac Soltice GXP
Saab 9-3 TTid
Veuxhall VXR8
Mitsubishi Evolution and Lancer Evolution FQ400
Opel GT
All Cadillac vehicles
Bristol fighter and Bristol fighter 8
Acura RDX
Aston Martin DB9 & DBS
Chevrolet trailblazer SS
Chevrolet cobalt SS S/c coupe
Saturn Sky Red Line

and more manufactures, but. . .

Are all these engineeres and companies willing to use an inferior motor oil?

Apparently they are.

Just because Mobil 1 happens to be factory fill in all of these cars does not make it the best oil. It just means that Mobil 1 has been lucky enough to secure the factory fill contract, and has the worldwide availability and heavy marketing that makes 99% of the driving public think it's the best oil out there, so it is still a good choice for car makers to use just based on those facts alone. It is still a good oil, it's just not as good as it once was. Most people will never put enough miles on their engine (especially Corvettes, most of which end up as garage queens unfortunately) to wear them out anyhow, so in most cases it doesn't matter which oil they use.

 

[killain]

Apparently they are.

Just because Mobil 1 happens to be factory fill in all of these cars does not make it the best oil. It just means that Mobil 1 has been lucky enough to secure the factory fill contract, and has the worldwide availability and heavy marketing that makes 99% of the driving public think it's the best oil out there, so it is still a good choice for car makers to use just based on those facts alone. It is still a good oil, it's just not as good as it once was. Most people will never put enough miles on their engine (especially Corvettes, most of which end up as garage queens unfortunately) to wear them out anyhow, so in most cases it doesn't matter which oil they use.

I contacted ExxonMobil, and they replied that they do not and have not changed the mobil-1 formula and that it still passes GM4718M requirment and recently has passed the Honda HTO-06 standard requirment for turbocharged engines. But I really have doubts that Porsche and Mercedes Benz AMG as well as the new Nissan GT-R would use something whcih has been changed and that there was some doubt as to how effective an oil it was? I would think that Porsche would like to see your analysis data.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Just check out the used oil analysis section on the forums at Bob Is The Oil Guy - Powered by Motor Oil and there are quite a large number of Mobil 1 oil analysis results on there.

You'll notice a trend once you go through a bunch of them, and that is the fact that Mobil 1 shows much higher iron levels than other oils do.

And...in your opinion, as an expert in spectorgraphic oil analysis, what conclusion do you draw from that?

Also, I think you ought to quit being evasive and tell us specificly what the actual results are. Additionally, telling us just to go look at Bob is the Oil Guy is bogus. What threads on that site (ie: the URLs) offer scientific evidence to support your statements.

 

[Patman]

And...in your opinion as an expert in spectorgraphic oil analysis, what conclusion do you draw from that?

Higher iron levels indicate higher valvetrain wear for one, and could also indicate less of an ability to fight off corrosion inside the engine too (something I'd certainly worry about a lot if I had an engine that sat unstarted for long periods of time)

 

[Patman]

I contacted ExxonMobil, and they replied that they do not and have not changed the mobil-1 formula and that it still passes GM4718M requirment and recently has passed the Honda HTO-06 standard requirment for turbocharged engines. But I really have doubts that Porsche and Mercedes Benz AMG as well as the new Nissan GT-R would use something whcih has been changed and that there was some doubt as to how effective an oil it was? I would think that Porsche would like to see your analysis data.

Do you honestly think that Exxon Mobil is going to tell you that they've changed the formula and it's not as good as it once was? The guys answering the phones there (and emails) are instructed exactly what to say, and it's not always the information that people truly need to hear. And FWIW, the formula of Mobil 1 has been changed numerous times over the years, they are constantly tweaking it, plus it always goes through a big change everytime they release new API specs (such as SJ, SL, SM, etc.) So for them to say the formula hasn't changed over the years is completely false, it's changed many many times.

If you guys don't believe me, then you can always contact Terry Dyson, who is the leading expert in interpreting oil analysis reports, and he'll say exactly what I'm saying, that the formula for M1 has changed many times over the past few years and it's not as good as it once was, and the oil analysis results he has interpreted for people prove this.

Here is Terry's website:

http://www.dysonanalysis.com/

 

[Patman]

Also, I think you ought to quit being evasive and tell us specificly what the actual results are. Additionally, telling us just to go look at Bob is the Oil Guy is bogus. What threads on that site (ie: the URLs) offer scientific evidence to support your statements.

I figured that once you guys get there you could find the results for yourselves, but if you're gonna make me work for it, I guess I can. :L

Here are the more recent M1 5w30 oil analysis reports showing high iron in them:

Mobil 1 5W-30/4546 miles/2007 Mazdaspeed3 - Bob Is The Oil Guy
Mobil 1 5W30 UOA; 6856mi in 05 Kia Spectra - Bob Is The Oil Guy
Mobil 1 5W-30, 7520 mi, 08 Crown Vic Police - Bob Is The Oil Guy
Mobil 1 5W-30, 6162 mi 07 Crown Victoria Police - Bob Is The Oil Guy
M1 5W30 2000 4Runner 3.4L 5600mi - Bob Is The Oil Guy
Mobil 1 5w30 4,500 miles/ 96 Ford Taurus SHO - Bob Is The Oil Guy

 

[Hib Halverson]

Higher iron levels indicate higher valvetrain wear for one, and could also indicate less of an ability to fight off corrosion inside the engine too (something I'd certainly worry about a lot if I had an engine that sat unstarted for long periods of time)

Since there's no iron in the valvetrains of modern engines--though there is steel (of which iron is a major component) and aluminum-- and that much of modern valvetrains are rollerized, I'd think that high iron levels are more indicative of 1) cylinder bore wear and, 2) especially, piston ring wear since virtually all production engines use cast or ductile iron rings. What do you think?

Now, let me ask you...all these spectrographic analysis results showing varying levels of wear metals, particularly iron, are they all from the same types of engines, which were subjected to the same duty-cycles, for the same distance or period of time (both total and between oil drain and filter-change intervals), with the same air filtering systems or....were they from unrealted tests involving different engines, different duty cycles, different distances and different air filtering systems?

Lastly, do you have any evidence indicating that the only one of the oils considered which has had its formula changed is Mobil 1 or is it that all the leading brands of mass-marketed "synthetic" engine oils have had their formulas changes and one mass-marketed product is not better than any other?

Lastly, what's your feeling about the Castrol "Syntec" engine oil...I'm especially interested to know your position on its base stock vs. that of M1.

Lastly, I think that you ought to stop posting other sites' URL's and post some of this data you have to support your positions.ad

 

[Patman]

Since there's no iron in the valvetrains of modern engines--though there is steel (of which iron is a major component) and aluminum-- and that much of modern valvetrains are rollerized, I'd think that high iron levels are more indicative of 1) cylinder bore wear and, 2) especially, piston ring wear since virtually all production engines use cast or ductile iron rings. What do you think?

Now, let me ask you...all these spectrographic analysis results showing varying levels of wear metals, particularly iron, are they all from the same types of engines, which were subjected to the same duty-cycles, for the same distance or period of time (both total and between oil drain and filter-change intervals), with the same air filtering systems or....were they from unrealted tests involving different engines, different duty cycles, different distances and different air filtering systems?

These reports are coming from all different types of engines, with all different types of driving styles but yet the end results are the same, higher levels of iron. Obviously there are many types of different metals used in different engines, so wear patterns will be different from one to the next, but it seems odd that Mobil 1 consistently shows higher iron levels. Maybe it is mostly piston ring wear after all.

Lastly, do you have any evidence indicating that the only one of the oils considered which has had its formula changed is Mobil 1 or is it that all the leading brands of mass-marketed "synthetic" engine oils have had their formulas changes and one mass-marketed product is not better than any other?

Every motor oil out there makes changes to their formulas all the time. They make major changes whenever there is a new API standard, and make minor tweaks along the way. And there are also cost cutting measures as well, so sometimes the changes aren't always to make the product better, but to make it more profitable. Mobil 1 probably isn't alone in doing this, but because so many people use this oil, they have become a big target, which is why both Valvoline and Castrol are now coming out with ads showing how their oils show better wear numbers then M1.

Lastly, what's your feeling about the Castrol "Syntec" engine oil...I'm especially interested to know your position on its base stock vs. that of M1.

I know a lot of people hate Castrol Syntec because of their use of a hydrocracked base oil instead of a PAO base, but Syntec is still a good oil with a good additive package. Some people have mentioned that M1 might even be using some group 3 in it's base oil now too, another cost cutting measure. I don't know for sure if this is true, but it wouldn't surprise me. That's not to say you can't make a great oil with a group 3 base though, Pennzoil Platinum uses the Shell XHVI base oil, which is a group 3 base, and their oil has shown very good oil analysis results.

Lastly, I think that you ought to stop posting other sites' URL's and post some of this data you have to support your positions.ad

Well you asked me to post the data, and I really didn't feel like spending two hours typing out all of those individual oil analysis reports, so the only way I could show you the info you requested was to copy and paste the URL to the forum which showed those results. That's where my data is coming from, it's from individuals that post their oil analysis results on the site. It's a great forum for seeing the performance of many different oils in many different engines. It allows people to get past the advertising hype and see how an oil truly performs in the real world.

 

[njlouc]

Very comprehensive research.
I wonder if the problems that Mobil1 had due to the Katrina shutdown and shortage had any effect on their product.
Bottom line I think that Castrol Edge seems to be a viable replacement - further it may be better. I expect that eventually the marketing dept may run a coupon/discount campaign. then it may be tempting.

 

[killain]

Oil, oil, oil . . .

I have some serious doubts about some of the analysis work, but besides that, why would a oil that has undergone a degradation process or cost cutting as you propose, still pass GM Standard 4718M and the more rigorous Honda HTO-06 turbocharged tests. ExxonMobil has posted it's highest profits ever, why would they cut corners on a main product? What could they save, how could that amount to anything substantial cost wise. Also I would think that a company like Porsche which uses Mobil-1 exclusively in all vehicles they build, if the Mobil-1 oil is defective wouldn't they be afraid of all those engines being burnt out and a ton of warranty claims to have to deal with? Wouldn't they want to choose another oil that isn't so compromised and would protect their engines and hard won reputation ? I guess I just can't see the logic in degrading a product that has so many factory users and is such a great selling motor oil. Has any of the people who have done these analysis contacted Mobil to show them the poor results done in the lab tests? wouldn't Exxonmobil be interested?:ugh

 

[Patman]

Has any of the people who have done these analysis contacted Mobil to show them the poor results done in the lab tests? wouldn't Exxonmobil be interested?:ugh

I am sure they are very interested, and I'm sure they've taken notice now that two of their competitors now have called them out and have their own independent lab tests showing their oil shows better engine wear numbers over M1. Both Valvoline and Castrol have the tests which show it, so you know that there will probably be others to follow.