Important! run nitrogen in your vetts tires

[gmc_kurt@yahoo.com]

i work for gm and i talked to alot of vette owners who switched over to nitrogen , they all told me they got a smoother, better ride, and their tire sensors have never been on, i tried it on my vette and its the best. my vette sits in my garage all winter .i pulled it out on our 63 degree february day and i never lost a pound in any tire, it also prevents flat spots from forming when you sit your vette. im hooked and im passing it on to any one who listens...

 

[Red Vette]

Run nitrogen in my 94, don't lose air pressure in the 4 on the floor nor in the spare. Been thinking of adding it to my 02, but haven't decided to do it yet. It's a long drive to the free refill at the Chevy dealer.
Barrett

 

[Hib Halverson]

i work for gm (snip)

Could you tell us a little bit more about what you do for General Motors?

 

[gmc_kurt@yahoo.com]

as little as possible, im a manager of their fleet sales division

 

[Evolution1980]

Ahhh..another "nitrogen in your tires" thread... :eyerole

Save yourself the money. There's no significant benefit in putting nitrogen in your tires that's respective to the cost of doing so.

Let's think about some things and ask some questions...(since you're doing as little as possible at work :z) :L

~~ Our atmosphere (the air we breathe) is 78% nitrogen.
...Unless your tires were filled in a vacuum chamber (they weren't), then you already have regular air in there as well. So you don't ever have 100% nitrogen in your tires.

~~ Nitrogen is a smaller molecule than oxygen and other inert gases. Thus, if you have any type of imperfections in the seal of rim to tire, or in the tire itself, the nitrogen is going to leak out faster than regular ol' air.

~~ "Nitrogen won't rust your rims from the inside-out". Neither will regular ol' air as long as it's dry. Get your air from a dry location / tank and you have little to worry about.

~~ "It's used in airplanes because it withstands pressure changes due to temperature changes". No, it's primarily used in airplane tires because when you're at 30K feet and there's a fire, nitrogen won't fuel the flames like oxygen would.

...and tires develop flat spots on them when you sit in your car...Really?? And that's because people have regular air in their tires? Really??

Don't buy into the hype about nitrogen in automotive tires. Instead of spending your money on snake oil disguised as nitrogen, spend your money on a $3 tire pressure gauge and put the leftover money in the bank. Or put it all in the bank and let your tire pressure sensors do their job (which mainly is to assist lazy people).
There's few things that amuse me more than walking through a parking lot and seeing green valve stem caps. :L

 

[Hib Halverson]

I might add that, for a given tire pressure, nitrogen will not change the way the car rides.

 

[gmc_kurt@yahoo.com]

you 2 didn,t do your homework....

gm, ford,bmw,honda, and toyota. all tested air to nitrogen, in all tests nitrogen improved the ride comfort 15%. improved gas milage 3%. nitrogen is a heavy gas that will not leak . it also improves run flat tires(used in vettes) from flats or leaks from tears to tread or sidewalls.any one who has ever put nitrogen into their car can feel the difference in the ride as soon as they leave the dealership.tires that used nitrogen lasted 7-14 thousand miles longer than tires that use air. air has water in it so when my buddy next to me read your typeing of using a dry air pump we both had a good laugh.

 

[oceangal]

Well this is timely, its from the Feb 09 Popular Mechanics:

Nitrogen in Tires - Using Nitrogen vs. Air in Car Tires - Popular Mechanics

Q: Is there any advantage to using nitrogen instead of compressed air in tires? Will I notice improved fuel economy or a smoother ride? Will my tires last longer?

A: Sort of. From the top: Air is 78 percent nitrogen, just under 21 percent oxygen, and the rest is water vapor, CO2 and small concentrations of noble gases such as neon and argon. We can ignore the other gases.

There are several compelling reasons to use pure nitrogen in tires.

First is that nitrogen is less likely to migrate through tire rubber than is oxygen, which means that your tire pressures will remain more stable over the long term. Racers figured out pretty quickly that tires filled with nitrogen rather than air also exhibit less pressure change with temperature swings. That means more consistent inflation pressures during a race as the tires heat up. And when you’re tweaking a race car’s handling with half-psi changes, that’s important.

Passenger cars can also benefit from the more stable pressures. But there’s more: Humidity (water) is a Bad Thing to have inside a tire. Water, present as a vapor or even as a liquid in a tire, causes more of a pressure change with temperature swings than dry air does. It also promotes corrosion of the steel or aluminum rim.

If I ever need to top off a tire when I’m out on the road, I’ll always briefly depress the tire chuck’s valve with my thumbnail and vent some air. If my thumb gets wet, there’s water in the line. Some gas stations don’t do a very good job of keeping the humidity out of their air system. I don’t even like to use a water-based tire-mounting lubricant unless I can let the tire bake in the sun for a couple of hours before I air it up and seat the bead. I’ve dismounted tires (not mine) that had several quarts of water inside—probably from a compressed-air hose that collected water and was never purged properly.

How is water relevant to a nitrogen discussion? Any system that delivers pure nitrogen is also going to deliver dry nitrogen. Filling tires with nitrogen involves filling and purging several times in succession, serially diluting the concentration of oxygen in the tire. This will also remove any water.

It’s certainly simple, although time-consuming, for a tire technician to fill and bleed tires. But most shops use a machine that not only generates almost pure nitrogen by straining the oxygen out of shop-compressed air, but will also automatically go through several purge cycles unattended. Some shops have been charging as much as $30 per tire for this service. I think that’s too much. If you’re buying a new tire, it should be far less. Still, the nitrogen generator, filling system and technician’s time aren’t free—the dealer is entitled to some return for that.

So, to answer your specific questions: With nitrogen, your tire pressures will remain more constant, saving you a small amount in fuel and tire–maintenance costs. There will be less moisture inside your tires, meaning less corrosion on your wheels. You will not be able to feel any difference in the ride or handling or braking, unless your tire pressures were seriously out of spec and changing to nitrogen brought them back to the proper numbers.

And from Consumer Reports.org:

October 04, 2007

Share

Tires - Nitrogen air loss study

Filling tires with nitrogen rather than air is becoming a common practice in the replacement tire market. This service offers tire dealers another avenue for making money while also promoting safety. The claimed safety benefits often include the potential for reducing air loss compared to an air-filled tire. Maintaining proper inflation can help prevent tire overheating; promote optimum tread life; and reduce rubber aging and wheel corrosion. The use of nitrogen in large truck fleets and the commercial tire industry are well documented and support these claims.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has seen reduced aging of tires filled with nitrogen. Though the data does support that passenger car tires could benefit by all the claims made for nitrogen, tire manufacturers say that they already design tires to perform well with air inflation. And while nitrogen will do no harm, manufacturers say that they don't see the need to use nitrogen, which generally adds $5 or more per tire charge.

Consumer Reports wanted to find out if nitrogen is worth the price, so we purchased a Nitrogen Inflation System and checked out how well the inflation held up over a one year period. We evaluated pairs of 31 tire models of H- and V-speed rated, all-season tires used in our tread wear test from 2006. We filled one tire per model with air and the other with nitrogen. The test was quite simple: fill and set the inflation pressure at room temperature to 30 psi (pounds per square inch); set the tire outdoors for one year; and then recheck the inflation pressure at room temperature after a one year period.
The tires were filled and deflated three times with nitrogen to purge the air out of the tire cavity. We also used an oxygen analyzer to be sure we had 95-percent nitrogen purity in the tire--the claimed purity limit of our nitrogen system, which generates nitrogen gas from ambient air.
The test started on September 20, 2006 and the final measurements were taken on September 20, 2007. The results show nitrogen does reduce pressure loss over time, but the reduction is only a 1.3 psi difference from air-filled tires. The average loss of air-filled tires was just 3.5 psi from the initial 30 pressure setting. Nitrogen-filled tires lost an average of 2.2 psi from the initial 30 psi setting. More important, all tires lost air pressure regardless of the inflation medium, so consumers should check their tires' air pressure routinely. No evaluation was done to assess the aging claim.
Bottom line: Overall, consumers can use nitrogen and might enjoy the slight improvement in air retention provided, but it's not a substitute for regular inflation checks.




And this is another article:

Nitrogen's tire benefits seem overblown - MSN Money

I guess I wouldn't go out of my way for nitrogen in my tires, but if it was nearby I might give it a try. Gawd knows it cost my husband probably more to fill up that giant air compressor to put air in the tires!

 

[gmc_kurt@yahoo.com]

oceangirl, you make my waves break. you did your homework very well. but remember that consumer reports and popular mechanics do their tests at their labs, car makers test in different climates in different countries world wide. consumer reports might spend 100,000.00 to do their tests, as the car makers will spend 5-10 million to test worldwide.the machines used to install the nitrogen run around 8-15 thousand dollars, which make alot of businesses unable to afford it.remember that nitrogen is warranted for the life of your tires. it costs 30.00 to get all 4 vette tires done in chicago..

 

[twiget]

gm, ford,bmw,honda, and toyota. all tested air to nitrogen, in all tests nitrogen improved the ride comfort 15%. improved gas milage 3%.

I have looked online, more than once, for any scientific data that proves that 100% N2 gas gives any benifits over standard compressed air. I have not found any. Since you work at GM, can you provide any data that supports your claims, Kurt?

nitrogen is a heavy gas that will not leak .

I disagree. N2 gas weighs ~14g/mol, O2 weighs ~16g/mol, and Argon weighs ~18g/mol. N2 is actually the lightest of the 3 gasses that make up 99.9% of our air. If a heavy gas is all that is needed, why not fill tires up with Argon?

Jason

 

[topless82vette]

a waste of money simple as that.

 

[Evolution1980]

gm, ford,bmw,honda, and toyota. all tested air to nitrogen, in all tests nitrogen improved the ride comfort 15%. improved gas milage 3%. nitrogen is a heavy gas that will not leak . it also improves run flat tires(used in vettes) from flats or leaks from tears to tread or sidewalls.any one who has ever put nitrogen into their car can feel the difference in the ride as soon as they leave the dealership.tires that used nitrogen lasted 7-14 thousand miles longer than tires that use air. air has water in it so when my buddy next to me read your typeing of using a dry air pump we both had a good laugh.

Did you call your buddy over to help you out of this one? It's OK if you did.

"...a heavy gas"? And that's beneficial how? ..versus a "light" gas?

"...improves run flats from flats or leaks from tears to tread or sidewalls." Huh? What?

"Any one who has ever put nitrogen into their car can feel the difference in the ride as soon as they leave the dealership." Ooh Ahh! It's called placebo effect and/or going from not properly inflated tires to having them properly inflated. :eyerole As Hib said above, psi is psi. A pound of feathers weighs the same as a pound of lead. C'mon dude...seriously. You're in sales, but not here. Then general constituency of the CAC is not that of Joe Idiot that you find buying into this crap.

If your sales of nitrogen in your tires is as good as your sales of fleet vehicles, I can see why GM is having problems: doing as little as possible and/or doing it poorly. (C'mon, you left yourself wide open for that one. :L)


oceangal, your post(s) essentially proves my overall point of "save your money". Thank you.

 

[Hib Halverson]

gm, ford,bmw,honda, and toyota. all tested air to nitrogen, in all tests nitrogen improved the ride comfort 15%. improved gas milage 3%. nitrogen is a heavy gas that will not leak . it also improves run flat tires(used in vettes) from flats or leaks from tears to tread or sidewalls.any one who has ever put nitrogen into their car can feel the difference in the ride as soon as they leave the dealership.tires that used nitrogen lasted 7-14 thousand miles longer than tires that use air. air has water in it so when my buddy next to me read your typeing of using a dry air pump we both had a good laugh.

First, you've said you're employed by GM, in you business working for an OE, you'll have access to facts which support your claim that Ford, BMW, Honda and Toyota have test data supporting the idea that nitrogen filled tires improve ride quality.

Please post some of that data.

Since you work for GM, have access to information that laypeople do not and seem to fashion yourself as an expert in the engineering of tires as they apply to ride-and-handling, please tell me some specifics of the improved ride observed from cars fitted with nitrogen-filled tires, that is: were these improvements in ride imparted by low-frequency suspension movement, mid-frequency or is the improvement in high-frequency impact harshness?

 

[gmc_kurt@yahoo.com]

you people are brutal..lol

twidget, argon has and still is being tested, nitrogen is used in aircraft, military humvees, heavy duty trucks, police and fire dept trucks and cars, earthmoving equipment,race cars, medical transporters.you can google nitrogen air.com and read for days on it. if nitrogen air is good enough for all of the companies i listed and the list is longer, than ask yourself why are they using it, if their is no difference, then why are they putting it in their fleets.oh when i say i do very little its a joke,( i have 35 trained people who i watch over, i double check everything they do).all of the major companies and the military all have tests results and believe in it enough to use it. air is 80% nitrogen so as far as psi goes, i would so much rather have 99% nitrogen in my tires than a mix of h2o and water. i t don't take a einstein to realize that the 99% of nitrogen will give you a much better ride, longer lasting tires, better gas mileage, and evenly compressed air throughout the tire

 

[twiget]

For high volume fleet aplications, N2 might be a viable option. In business, it is all about the Benjamin's. If using N2 on a fleet of 1,000 18-wheelers (18,000 tires) reduces the number of wheels replaced because of corrosion due to water vapor by 1% (that is 180 wheels saved), that probably more than pays for the expense of using N2.

Racing teams that use N2 in their tires because the pressure is more stable as the tire heats up are at a level of competition where having an extra 5 pounds of weight on the car can mean the difference between the top spot on the podium, or second or third place.

I wont argue that for some aplications, using N2 in the tires makes a difference. What I question is; does the Average Joe, tooling down the street in his 'Vette really benifit from the extra cost of filling their tires with N2? You claim, Kurt, that GM, Ford, BMW, Honda, and Toyota have done testing that shows a performance improvement over regular compressed air, in both ride quality and fuel economy. The PM article Oceangal quoted above indicates that there is no improvement in fuel economy and ride quality.

You can throw out all the big names you want, and how they use N2 in their tires, but until I see some data that supports your claims of improved fuel mileage and ride quality for the Average Joe, it is all hersay to me. To paraphrase Jerry McGuire "Show me the data!"

Jason

 

[oceangal]

I'm just happy when my wheels look all purdy ;-)

that is as I smoke the tires going down the street :L

(in my dreams)

 

[Hib Halverson]

Ok...

...I give up on the antinitrogen stuff.

I've had a complete turnaround on this issue after reading some old Obama campaign literature.I'm investing some money in a company my stock broker wrote me about a week or so ago called Oxygensucker Enterprises, LLC.

They make a kit which removes the oxygen from the air in tires leaving just nitrogen and a very small component of intert gases. It's easy to use. First, deflate the tire and remove the valve core. Then, connect the bottle of Oxygensucker's "SuperOxygenEvac" fluid to the valve stem and squeeze the bottle twice. That injects a precisely measured amount of SuperO2Evac fluid into the tire. Wait 5 minutes for it to spread inside the tire casing. Then, reinstall the valve core, connect the Oxygensucker HD Pump assembly and reinflate the tire to 30% over max. rated pressure. Finally, connect the O2VD (Oxygensucker Vent Device) to the valve stem and open it until all the oxygen flows out. What's left is pure nitrogen in your tires.

Caution: keep sparks or open flame away from the work area during the oxygen venting process.

You can buy the Oxygensucker, starting next week or as soon as I get my next stimulus check. It retails for $50.00 however, I'll sell it to gmc_kurt and others who need N2 in their tires for 40. But wait...order now and I double the offer. You'll get two Oxygensucker kits. You only pay the extra shipping an handling.

(Do I sound like Billy Mays, yet?)

 

[Pac-man]

I am amazed that our wheels and tires have survived this long filled with air. What was I thinking? I need nitrogen now!

 

[Hib Halverson]

Well....the orders for "Oxygensucker" kits did not flow in they way I thought.

But seriously....I think nitrogen for tires is way overrated and is not being way overpromoted by the tire service industry. It's also being "swallowed" hook-line-and-sinker by the gullible factions in the automotive enthusiast community.

In late 06 I researched an article which eventually published in "Corvette Enthsiast" called "Tire Talking Points." In it, we covered nitrogen and this is what went to press in the story.

3) What about nitrogen in tires?
John Rastetter, Director of Tire Information Services at The Tire Rack, told us, "We believe nitrogen is better. We are evaluating it for all our mounted tire/wheel packages. Nitrogen slows rubber oxidation, a major part of tire aging. Also, a tire holds pressure better with nitrogen. Another thing," Rastetter continued, "if you don't have oxygen; you don't have moisture which, I believe, also, affects tire aging." Finally, he added that, in Tire Rack's testing, nitrogen-filled tires have less pressure rise than tires with air and he attributes that to absence of moisture.

There are some problems with nitrogen. The consumer-level infrastructure necessary for a convenient source of nitrogen doesn't exist nation-wide. Then there's pricing–is nitrogen worth $10.00 extra per set of tires? Perhaps. Is it worth the fifty bucks some tire vendors may try to charge? Not even.

We think, nitrogen is a premium upgrade. If your Vette is on a high-buck set of ultraperformance tires, you're concerned about consistent performance over several years and you can store nitrogen for tire maintenance, it's a good idea. Conversely, if you have an older C4 on typical replacement tires and you're watching your expenses or you're racing on tires which last only a couple of events, nitrogen is a frivolous waste.

I maintain that, at this point in time, two years after that article published, the situation is still the same as far as the reality of nitrogen-filled tires.

There might be a few racing situations where nitrogen is useful (cases of significant pressure rise due to heat) but in others, it might not be. N2 might enhance durability of expensive sets of tires in service for a number of years. It might be useful if you have a car which is stored for long periods, its tires cannot be allowed to go flat and reqular pressure checks are difficult to acomplish. Otherwise, nitrogen is not of much practical use. It certainly won't improve ride quality which was one of the significant claims in the post which began this thread.

Nitrogen, in itself, also, won't prevent "flat spots" on tires which are on stored vehicles. As long as pressure is maintained, flat spots develop because of tire construction and/or materials, rather than due to the type of gas used to inflate them. For example, tires which use primarily nylon in their casings tend to develop flat spots during storage. When the car is driven after a period of storage, you can notice the flat spots (the thump, thump, thump you may feel and hear) for the first 10 miles or so. Once the tire warms up a bit, the casing returns to its normal shape and the flat spotting is gone.

I'll admit that nitrogen may assist in reducing flat spots due to deflation during long-term storage, but you still need to maintain tire pressure, it's just that use of nitrogen may make required pressure checks less frequent....ie: to keep the tire from flat spotting due to low/no pressure, if you use nitrogen, you need to check pressure once every three months rather than once every month.

Do I use nitrogen in my tires?

I've never tried it.

Good old air works for me.

 

[gmc_kurt@yahoo.com]

ive used both air and nitrogen

over the last 33 yrs i have been driving, i have used air 32 yrs and nitrogen 1 yr. i have a 4x4 suv with air, and my vette with nitrogen. i have to add air every 1-2 months on my suv, and i have never added any in my vette.my tire sensors go off every 4-6 months on my suv, they never have gone off in my vette since nitrogen was added. im going to go get nitrogen put in my suv this weekend.. im a believer ...