2003 Z06 Exhaust tinkle

[bitmunger]

Another on going issue I have, is the exhaust makes this noise. At first I thought it was valve clatter, that is the best description for the noise. Had a service manager take a ride to demonstrate noise. The service manager told me that it was not the engine it was the exhaust :duh. The part that really disturbed me was he stated "Thats part of the Beast". I find this totally unacceptible and have not heard it when test driving another '03 Z06. Also, the car seems to back fire and I do not know if this is normal. I want my guns loaded when I go back to the Dealer. Any ammo you can supply would be greatly appreciated.
Am I being unrealistic stating the noise is unacceptible? Any body got any ideas on how to resolve this noise?

 

[Edmond]

The Z06 does have a freer flowing exhaust than non-Z06 C5's. Add that to the fact that there is less sound insulation and it adds up to a noisier ride. But I'm sure there are some members in the Atlanta area that may be able to tell you how "normal" that sound is.

 

[trimmerdude]

Have the same problem in my 2003 Z06 also. It seems to backfire when I don't warm it up long enough. But when warm the backfire ceases. As for the Exhaust gingle.mine does it every so often , but not constantly.:eyerole

 

[MsSchroder]

Hi again!
mine backfires on rare occasions.
it burbles all the time (but I like it)
I don't think I've heard the jingle, but I'll try it in the next day or two with the radio off.

Have you given the z06 forum a try? I did a search on "jingle" and came up with lots of stuff. Unfortunately there seem to be lots of opinions about the source of the sound, and whether it is just a necessary evil of a high performance car, or something worse.

this link has an audio clip:
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26177&highlight=jingle

this link has lots of posts and lots of opinions
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/show...6189&perpage=15&highlight=jingle&pagenumber=2

this link talks about caps on O2 sensors
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/show...0801&perpage=15&highlight=jingle&pagenumber=2

when do you hear it- at what rpm's, when accelerating, decelerating?

Tammy

 

[murph]

Z 06 exhaust jingle

Happy Holidays,
Has GM come up with a fix? I've put my 2002 in storage for the winter but would like to have the fix so in the spring I could have it corrected.
It is like GM to say there is nothing wrong but I have to tell you everyone that hears my car run says "whats that noise, something loose". Why not fix it!
I've been ignored by them since I complained about it.
Murph

 

[MsSchroder]

With the radio off, I can hear a faint jingle coming from the back of the car if I take my foot off the gas (I noticed this in 3rd, 4th, 5th gears, didn't try the others). But it was not very pronounced.
C4C5Specialist, is there any new info on this from GM?

 

[c4c5specialist]

HI there,
While there are still many different types of noises in the exhaust system in the ZO6 catagory, one thing is for certain.
Noises on 02 vs 03 are of a different frequency, thus, not the same.
02, there was the change from the precats, to no precats, which created that jingle condition. Theory follows, that converters actually do so much more than just perform emission control functions, they are actually noise and vibration dampers as well.
So, with that in mind, you can see why the jingle is found in 02 vs 01, as there is less converter, thus the noise.
So, for 03 they changed the converter assembly slightly, to change the frequency, and harmonics within the exhaust system.
Backfiring is simply due to fresh air being pumped into the exhaust, and then causing the back fire. This is normal when cold. You may get an occasional one when hot, as the exhaust does slightly pull air past the injection check valves, causinging the same noise occasionally.
There are many exhaust noises, and the extremely lightweight titanium system, which when stainless dampened noise also, now does not due to the light weight.
So with that, if you consider it obtrusive, contact your local dealership, however, IMO, its all good, as long as it creates power.
Allthebest, c4c5

 

[vettepilot]

C4C5,
Good point especially on the Ti exhaust system. I know you know this already, but for the rest that don't... Normally when the design engineers go to work designing anything made of metal that oxidizes, (rust, corrosion) they have to figure the anticipated life span of that metal during which the thickness is reduced by the normal oxidation process. Titanium doesn't rust or oxidize, therefore the wall thickness isn't reduced over the lifespan of the component. The Ti component (in this case the pipes, mufflers, etc.) were designed with thinner walls because the engineers didn't have to plan for lifespan deterioration. In effect, the pipe and muffler walls being thinner and lighter have less thickness and mass to absorb the leftover exhaust sounds. Much in the way that one can hear more exhaust noise from a set of thin wall tubular headers compared to cast iron exhaust manifolds.
I still believe that many of the complaints we read about on this site, and others, in respect to the obtrusive noises from the Z06 are mainly from owners that never should have gotten into a Z06 in the first place. NO FLAMMING INTENDED HERE, most would have been better off with either a coupe or convertible because what they really wanted was a fast, sleek, high performance sports car to have an occasional enjoyable weekend cruise. What they ended up with was an ultra high performance, very quick, very high limits sports car, with reduced frills and lots of noise due largely from the reduced sound insulation materials normally found in higher end vehicles.
Well, at least that's what I think... but others may think otherwise.
vettepilot

 

[murph]

Hello,
I had to respond to this matter. The headers on the z06 are cast iron, thin as they may be the exhaust shouldn't sound like it has a coat hanger holding it up. I like may other owners have the same condition to use the GM term, which sounds like well I'll leave it there. The car is a truly well put together sports car but having said that this condition to me isn't acceptable.
I first reported this problem back in June and it was known then that it was something that was going to be corrected by the Corvette team at Bowling Green.
Lets see where it goes from here!
Murph

 

[Yeller Z06]

Well... I think Vettepilot makes a good point - this car is oriented more toward performance than comfort. On the other hand, when one spends 50+K on a car, one expects a certain level of refinement. On the other hand (I've got three now) I test drove a BMW M3 (E46) and they've got a real problem with their exhaust systems until fully warmed up... sounds like some kind of Mazda with headers and glasspacks. Not what one would expect from a BMW.

I guess what I'm trying to say is

1) that if "they all do that" is what the dealer tells you, and it's true, then, uh, I guess there ain't much you can do about it! And

2) Corvette and Z06 are not the only cars that have made these kinds of compromises.

Michael

 

[vettepilot]

Has anybody heard about the standard Coupe and Convertible making these strange exhaust system sounds? I haven't, so that's why I think it is more the lack of sound insulation than the actual system itself. After all, people don't complain about a noise they can't hear. It's quite possible that all late model corvettes have this same "jingle", but it cannot be percieved because of the heavier sound insulation found in the coupe and verts.
I don't know that to be true or not, it's just speculation, anybody out there know?
vettepilot

 

[1FASTDOG]

Let's reflect here on some that's been said regarding the jingle sound on decel some are talking about.

The balance or H pipe was redesigned for '02 as the removal of the pup cats allowed a resonance determined not acceptible. A characteristic of the new pipe can be a jingle sound when lifting the throttle... some folks notice it, some don't. Some ar bothered by it some aren't.

There's a part of the Corvette buying community that wants more and more power in their next 'vette...count me among that group.

Every tenth in improvement in 0-60 times has a measured rise in Corvette sales. I don't mean to get off track by mentining this... but any notion that smart car makers don't try to make what people want thru listening and asking is not at all true.

Back to characteristics. The H pipe isn't "defective". It can make a sound some owners don't like... If you change the H pipe to any number of aftermarket ones, the jingle will go away. Can you pick up some resonance? Maybe..depends on the pipe you use I would bet.

Some folks swap their exhausts out on their 'vettes because the characteristic sound of the stock exhaust doesn't suit them... actually these swaps are done in significant numbers...WHY? They want something that sounds different, be it louder or more exotic... or something with a different characteristics.

The T56 transmission has a characteristic rattle that can be noticed under some launch from stop conditions... a defect? No but it's a characteristic of this transmission that is one of the few trannies that will handle a lot of torque and survive to tell the tale. There aren't a lot of sturdy 6 speeds to choose from.

Maybe some old timers will remember the Muncie "22" that got the nickname of "rockcrusher" as it had a characteristic whine due to the straight cut gearing because straight cut gears handle much more torque. You could hear the rockcrusher over open headers... I know from direct experience.

I have no doubt that GM will look into addressing characteristics that are brought to their attention by the field. Perhaps some dealers were swapping out exhaust systems over jingle complaints and when the parts were inspected by GM they were seeing lots of attempts to fix that which was not "broken".

The Z06 is not for everyone and it isn't meant to be. It has less sound deadening materials because lower weight is a rule of engagement for the Z06. Power to weight is the main theme of the car. It's the theme for the next gen of the Z06 too.

IMO the Z06 is incredibly friendly for a car with it cababilities and I think I got a GT "club racer" nearly complete, for less money than I could hope to build one for. This doesn't mean it can't be improved upon, nor does it mean a warrantable defect shouldn't be fixed under GM's obligations in accord with the terms of the warranty.

This theme is about characteristics, IMHO.

Here's another little characteristic example:

The idle quality is an area car manufacturers take into consideration. The cams in the GenIII smallblock Chevy LS1 and LS6 motors are aggressive. The standard Chevy firing order would not allow an idle that most folks wouldn't complain about... racers or gearheads wouldn't be bothered because some shake is part of the game. Lots of folks won't tolerate a lumpy or shaking idle quality. Solution? Firing order of the cylinders. The firing order change allows a much better idle quality feel... the LS6 has the biggest cam ever put in a street smallblock and it's remarkably smooth for how hot the cam is in specs.

The firing order change does alter the sound of the exhaust at idle from what is traditionally the smallblock rumble to a sound some call a "motorboat". There's no performance tradeoff..only a characteristic sound difference. One plus of the firing order change is in the higher RPMs you get a sound much like 180 degree headers or similar to some "flat firing" exotics like Ferrari. Those that have gone with Corsas, particularly the TI Corsas know exactly the sound I'm talking about. My preference is not the sound of a motor at idle but exhaust music at 6300 RPMs does have my interest. If you have heard Corsas TI at WOT 6 grand sounds like 8500.

I wouldn't doubt that there was some reluctance to put a more aggressive front brake pad on the '02 Z06 as dusting and squeak would generate some customer complaint. I'm glad the "racier" pad won out, but do notice some folks hate cleaning wheels or hearing pads work from some threads that show up on the net from time to time... proof that not every one understands or tolerates tradeoffs. Not everyone wants as mcuh car as they think they do.

All Z06 fans should make their feelings known. Your next 'vette won't be the kind you really want if you don't. I'm very confident GM reads this forum.

My Z06 is what I expected. I think the Z06 communicates very well with the driver. If the next Gen Z06 has more of what I want then I'll buy it.

Hope this wasn't too rambling. If you got this far then thanks for the read.

I have heard there will probably be a h-pipe in mid '03 that addresses the jingle characteristic.

 

[MsSchroder]

Hope this wasn't too rambling. If you got this far then thanks for the read.

1FastDog- great read...not rambling at all. thanks for the info. especially interesting about the cam. So the LS6 has a different firing order from the standard engine to reduce the shake? I trust that the wiggle & shake that mine has is normal? :cool

 

[vettepilot]

1fastdog,
Well thought out, and well said. You put it out there for all to read and let the chips fall where they may. Pretty much what many of us who appreciate ultra high performance autos and particularly the Z06 option have been thinking and trying to say, but we somehow fell short each time. I guess it needed that much space to say it all, so that certainly wasn't rambling.
Your mention of the M21 (actually I thought it was the M22) brought me back to my SS Nova days, people would ask why my transmission was whining like that, and was it covered under warranty. LOL
Good read, and nice job putting it all together.
vettepilot

 

[1FASTDOG]

1fastdog,
Well thought out, and well said. You put it out there for all to read and let the chips fall where they may. Pretty much what many of us who appreciate ultra high performance autos and particularly the Z06 option have been thinking and trying to say, but we somehow fell short each time. I guess it needed that much space to say it all, so that certainly wasn't rambling.
Your mention of the M21 (actually I thought it was the M22) brought me back to my SS Nova days, people would ask why my transmission was whining like that, and was it covered under warranty. LOL
Good read, and nice job putting it all together.
vettepilot

Thanks, and you are absolutely correct on the M22 being the "rock crusher". I went fat fingered in typing I guess! Thanks for reading! I'll correct that in the previous thread.

 

[1FASTDOG]

1fastdog,
Well thought out, and well said. You put it out there for all to read and let the chips fall where they may. Pretty much what many of us who appreciate ultra high performance autos and particularly the Z06 option have been thinking and trying to say, but we somehow fell short each time. I guess it needed that much space to say it all, so that certainly wasn't rambling.
Your mention of the M21 (actually I thought it was the M22) brought me back to my SS Nova days, people would ask why my transmission was whining like that, and was it covered under warranty. LOL
Good read, and nice job putting it all together.
vettepilot

Thanks, and you are absolutely correct on the M22 being the "rock crusher". I went fat fingered in typing I guess! Thanks for reading!

 

[Rob]

I don't mean to pull this thread off topic, but I find the subject of it kind of interesting. Back in April of 1995, I attended the Legend Lives event in Bowling Green which was to commemorate the last ZR-1 coming off the assembly line.

Dave McLellan as well as several other GM Powertrain and Lotus engineers held a "tech seminar" and answered questions from the audience (ZR-1 owners).

One of the more popular question/concern of most ZR-1 owners (most C4 - ZF 6-speed owners) is the gear rattle you here at idle or in first gear.

The cause for the rattle is due to the design of the gears. The ZF is a high performance transmission capable of withstanding a great amount of torque. That ability is obtained due to the design of the gears.

When asked about how to cure the gear rattle, retired Corvette Chief Engineer, Dave McLellan's response was: "Why fix what isn't broken? We've equipped your Corvettes with powerful Delco Bose Stereos. If you don't like the sound of the gears rattling in first gear, turn up the volume on your radio."

 

[1FASTDOG]

1FastDog- great read...not rambling at all. thanks for the info. especially interesting about the cam. So the LS6 has a different firing order from the standard engine to reduce the shake? I trust that the wiggle & shake that mine has is normal? :cool

Thanks! I think you'll find me accurate on the firing order.

My Z06 does have a perceivable shake at idle... no where near what you'd expect from as agressive a profile as these camshafts have.

I'd hate to guess what your idle is really like without feeling what you describe for myself... my guess is it's not an issue and doing what it's gonna do for the power being made..

 

[Rob]

All Z06 fans should make their feelings known. Your next 'vette won't be the kind you really want if you don't. I'm very confident GM reads this forum.

THIS is a very important statement.

If you stop and think about it...focus groups and clinics cost manufacturers money. Members and non-members are not charged to view these forums.

GM can view these forums just as easily as the members can. In my own humble opinion, automotive forums where owners and enthusiasts are able to come together and express their concerns and observations about a product, are an EXTREMELY valuable tool in planning and developing future product in the pipeline. For a company like GM, these forums and others like it, are essentially, a direct line to their customer base.

This is also the reason why I've taken a pretty stiff stance on members posting rumors regarding the C6 in the C6 forum. Rather than posting rumors about what you've heard (which chances are, is completely inaccurate), I'd rather see posts that express what you'd like to see in the next gen. Vette and maybe what you like/dislike about the current C5.

Anyway, I'm rambling on here and I don't want to keep finding myself guilty of pulling this thread off topic.

 

[vettepilot]

Rob,
I attended The Last ZR-1 Rollout too, was stationed at Ft Campbell in those days, only about 1 1/2 hours away from BG. I felt rather humbled parking my 93 Z07 with that little LT1 amongst those King of the Hill ZR-1s. But what a great sight that was, as I stood in the middle of the grass and looked out across that sea of Corvettes/ ZR-1s. Talk about accumulated horsepower.... I had a great time that day, and made some more "Vette friends". Who knows, we may have been standing next to one another when they rolled out of the smoke in that last car. I was on the right hand side of the car as it rolled out, about 20 feet to the front.
vettepilot