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85 Vette

marrp

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
17
Location
Rainier, WA
Corvette
1986 Black 4+3
Just picked up an 85 vette. When cold, car will not start until oil pressure builds up to 45-55 pounds. It will start firing when pressure reaches 45-55 and finally starts. You cannot hear fuel pump running when you turn the key. Once fired off it usually fires right up but it has started to die at times after it is warmed up. Sometimes if it is shut off to go in a store and you come right back out it just turns over and won't fire. If I wait a few minutes it then immediately fires up. Today it died twice on the way home. Waited for a couple minutes each time and it would immediately fire and drive for a few minutes again.

when it is hot and won't start, you cannot hear fuel pump then either when you cycle the key on and off. The engine is oil is hot and pressure gauge reads 30 to 40 pounds cranking when it won't start. Can't build pressure to see if that is the reason it won't start when hot. Just weird that it will immediately fire if I wait a few minutes.
 
Just picked up an 85 vette. When cold, car will not start until oil pressure builds up to 45-55 pounds. It will start firing when pressure reaches 45-55 and finally starts. You cannot hear fuel pump running when you turn the key. Once fired off it usually fires right up but it has started to die at times after it is warmed up. Sometimes if it is shut off to go in a store and you come right back out it just turns over and won't fire. If I wait a few minutes it then immediately fires up. Today it died twice on the way home. Waited for a couple minutes each time and it would immediately fire and drive for a few minutes again.

when it is hot and won't start, you cannot hear fuel pump then either when you cycle the key on and off. The engine is oil is hot and pressure gauge reads 30 to 40 pounds cranking when it won't start. Can't build pressure to see if that is the reason it won't start when hot. Just weird that it will immediately fire if I wait a few minutes.

Fuel filter and tank screen.

Pump only runs 2 seconds until engine fires. When the filter is clogged thats not long enough to get full pressure. 30 is low. Should get 40+ with just key ON prime. Fuel Pump relay/fuse/breaker is also probably bad. Its getting power thru the back-up fuel pump system.
 
Fuel Pump relay/fuse/breaker is also probably bad. Its getting power thru the back-up fuel pump system.
From same power source.(has fusible link )
Splits through relay and OP switch then joins to go to pump


Pump.jpg
 
Just picked up an 85 vette. When cold, car will not start until oil pressure builds up to 45-55 pounds. It will start firing when pressure reaches 45-55 and finally starts. You cannot hear fuel pump running when you turn the key.
.


A couple things that I failed to make clear....

The oil pressure sender is way off.... Building 55 lbs or even 30 with the starter is just not gonna happen. 5 to 10 maybe, but not much more. The starter can't spin the engine fast enough to build more pressure. If the engine idle (700 rpm) gets a real 15-20 psi oil pressure, then 60 rpm while cranking ain;t gonna build more than 10.

The oil press sender wire section is cheesy at best,. and its not uncommon for people to see 30 to 60 lbs with the key ON and engine OFF. Or it'll show 80 when you're idling and less with rpm increase. The harness has factory splices that corrode and start to come apart and the poor connections or broken connections effect the resistance values of the oil pressure sender. Its a pretty sensitive signal to the digital dash display.

I just bought a new oil pressure wire section with plugs on Flea-Bay. Everybody buys a new sender first,. then when things don't get better they end up having to address the wire rot or they just drive around thinking they have 70 or 80 psi oil pressure....they don't. A mechanical oil pressure gauge will demonstrate whats really going on...

The low oil pressure switch only requires around 4-6 psi to close and complete the power circuit to bypass a bad fuel pump relay. Most auto parts stores will have a new fuel pump relay. Filters are a bit more and pumps with new tank screens are closer to $100.
There is no point in buying ANY parts until you do a fuel pressure test with a good gauge.

If starting when hot or warmed up and there is fuel pressure, go back and test the fuel pressure while cranking warm and driving. The gauge should be pretty steady around 40 psi. If the needle flickers around and dives and takes a second or 2 to recover thats the sign of a plugged tank screen or filter. The system might build pressure but it cannot flow very much thru the clogged filter. Thats what the flickering needle in the fuel pressure gauge is saying.
After the car sits for a while the pressure will bleed off and the trash settles in the filter and will then let some fuel pass again. As soon as the engine runs again and moves the fuel it also moves the trash back into the filter and fills the last open space in the filter. I've seen this a hundred times.

It Dies in traffic or won;t start again after sitting for 3 minutes....starts fine when stone cold OR after sitting for an hour and letting the fuel pressure drop off to zero.

Its not so much the temp, its the pressure in the fuel line that keeps junk stuffed into the filter screens. As soon as the pressure drops so does the trash and fuel can flow again, for a few minutes until the trash fills the filter screens again.
 
85 vette

The 30 to 40 pounds when hot was relative to the oil pressure gauge. I have not checked fuel pressure and I was told it had a new fuel pump installed just before I got it - I would hope they replaced or at least cleaned the screen. Previous owner said that there were some wires fried on the firewall next to the drivers side between the brakes and the engine - some sort of relay they plug into - shop was supposed to have replaced the wires and fuel pump. they were ordering an ecm because the car would not start until the oil pressure built up to 50 pounds. Much of the time it runs and drives fine, just problems with cold start and hot start at times. Thanks for info, I will get some readings off fuel pressure as soon as I can. Also, the fuel pump does not come on any time the car will not start - fuel pump runs, car will start - not running, no start
 
The 30 to 40 pounds when hot was relative to the oil pressure gauge. I have not checked fuel pressure and I was told it had a new fuel pump installed just before I got it - I would hope they replaced or at least cleaned the screen. Previous owner said that there were some wires fried on the firewall next to the drivers side between the brakes and the engine - some sort of relay they plug into - shop was supposed to have replaced the wires and fuel pump. they were ordering an ecm because the car would not start until the oil pressure built up to 50 pounds. Much of the time it runs and drives fine, just problems with cold start and hot start at times. Thanks for info, I will get some readings off fuel pressure as soon as I can. Also, the fuel pump does not come on any time the car will not start - fuel pump runs, car will start - not running, no start

I think ECM - maybe EGR or fuel pump, is the most common blindly replaced part, with NO diagnostics done.

Get leakdown time on fuel pressure. Note how fast it goes to zero, and post back on it. If a shop does it WATCH them do it, AND leakdown, and when they say "fuel pump", ask them if the injectors could be leaking, or the FPR too. Listen to them stutter an answer...
 
The 30 to 40 pounds when hot was relative to the oil pressure gauge. I have not checked fuel pressure and I was told it had a new fuel pump installed just before I got it - I would hope they replaced or at least cleaned the screen. Previous owner said that there were some wires fried on the firewall next to the drivers side between the brakes and the engine - some sort of relay they plug into - shop was supposed to have replaced the wires and fuel pump. they were ordering an ecm because the car would not start until the oil pressure built up to 50 pounds. Much of the time it runs and drives fine, just problems with cold start and hot start at times. Thanks for info, I will get some readings off fuel pressure as soon as I can. Also, the fuel pump does not come on any time the car will not start - fuel pump runs, car will start - not running, no start

Do this the simple way..

Find the low oil pressure switch and pull the plug. Jump the terminals. Now, you have power to the fuel pump without oil pressure.

Your fuel pump relay is dead, sounds like. Fried wires? Fuel pump circuit?
Wonder what the fuse/ breaker looks like? A round pic of Abe Lincoln?

BTW....whoever said that it had to build 50 lbs oil pressure sure was'nt well trained on C4 motors...thats impossible and it only takes about 5.

The filter is on the frame under the passenger side seat area.
Good Luck
 
More info

OK, went out today and got code off vette - it has a code 54 - low voltage fuel pump - I also thought I would do the A and G ground to force pump to run and it did not make the pump run. I'll go back through the info you gave me and do more checks tomorrow. Thanks for help so far
 
Good job testing...

Remember tho', if the test fails, you can still have more than one problem; i.e., no current from ground wire to frame could mean a broken ground wire, OR no current coming IN from 12V source!
 
I also thought I would do the A and G ground to force pump to run and it did not make the pump run.
Jumper terminals A and E on the fuel pump relay connector and see if pump runs
 
more tests

Ok, next phase of testing - no fuel pressure turning on the key, pump not functioning - no pressure grounding out the aldl testing ports a and g pump does not come on - pulled oil pressure switch by distributor and used a test wire to connect the two wires, pump came on immediately. Pressure was at 38 pounds. Turned key and vette started to fire here and there and then finally caught and ran. While running pressure was at 30 pounds. As soon as I pulled the test wire the car will start stumbling as pressure drops and then die. Leakdown test was not good as within a minute after turning off car it dropped to 18 pounds from 30 and 5 minutes later was down to 10 pounds. 20 minutes down to 5 pounds. Also just checked A and E on the fuel pump relay and fuel pump kicked right on up to 38 pounds. Thanks for ideas so far.
 
pulled oil pressure switch and used a test wire to connect the two wires, pump came on immediately.Also just checked A and E on the fuel pump relay and fuel pump kicked right on up to 38 pounds.

So pump is OK (ish)
Low pressure could be blocked filter , pump on way out or regulator leaking.There are further tests you can do to check out

First problem is getting pump to actually run as it should
I would try and get some DVM test leads on the OP switch terminals and see if it closes @ 4psi when cranking as it should.
If not replace switch.

At the relay connector ;see if you get 12V @ terminal C when key first turned on ( only for 2 sec ) .That confirms ECM is trying to operate the relay
In any case I think relay replacement would be justified based on age alone

With relay connected and key off;
12V to terminal C ( can jumper from terminal E ) should close relay and run pump
 
EXCELLENT testing!

Now we need pics to go along with your work, and have good reference thread...

Maybe make sure of no obvious fuel line leaks before doing any further FP circuit tests tho'... All it takes is ONE spark, and only thing to do then is get a LONG stick, and some



roasting-marshmallows.jpg
 
Fuel PUmp

Fuel pump does not come on with turning key on - fuel pump relay is replaced and there is no signal from the computer at C on the relay to start the fuel pump. AS mentioned earlier the wires from the relay do start the pump if jumped across.
 
Fuel pump does not come on with turning key on - fuel pump relay is replaced and there is no signal from the computer at C on the relay to start the fuel pump. AS mentioned earlier the wires from the relay do start the pump if jumped across.

Then there is an incomplete circuit at or to the fuel pump relay.

Check the easy stuff.....

FP breaker in fuse panel (if equipped) some just have fuse

ground bundle (g-104) on trans bellhousing (that merges with harness that runs to the bulkhead we want to look at)

fusable links under battery box/support

Wire harness bulkhead seal/connector rt side firewall behind cyl head valve cover (visual inspect for damage)

I would also pull the fuel door boot and inspect the pump wire harness for damage.

Keep in mind that everything in the electrical system is managed or controlled by grounds....bad grounds mean dead circuits. No ECM control (a ground) or signal to a servo ( a ground path).
Grounds are listed in 3 ways...

Ground as a common... (black wires) <---- to the trans bellhousing (5 wires on 1 bolt)

as a "power ground" (control device) (black w/white stripe) <---- to the relay

or as a loop that jumps from one sensor to another. (green w/yellow or wht stripe) switches for a/c or fans etc.

Bottom line, ignore the power circuits and focus on the ground paths. Thats where the magic takes place in Corvette electronics.
 
AS mentioned earlier the wires from the relay do start the pump if jumped across.

Yup - now that you know the pump works, probably best to find the leak first. If you can't find an external leak, maybe the injectors are draining the fuel into the oil each time you turn on the pump...

Maybe make sure of no obvious fuel line leaks before doing any further FP circuit tests tho'... All it takes is ONE spark, ...
 
Leak down

funny thing - now that I have ran it a little - here it is 12 hours later and it is still registering 25 pounds
 
funny thing - now that I have ran it a little - here it is 12 hours later and it is still registering 25 pounds

probably because it never had a leak down issue....just the current problem of getting the pump to run.

Pumps have a check valve built in that is supposed to prevent backflow after shutdown. If the system holds normal pressure for an hour, and still holds 25 after 12 hrs, its probably ok mechanically. Electrically its not ok.
 
Fuel pump does not come on with turning key on - fuel pump relay is replaced and there is no signal from the computer at C on the relay to start the fuel pump.
Did you try what I suggested above
With relay connected and key off;
put 12V to terminal C ( can jumper from terminal E ) ;should close relay and run pump

Would confirm pump relay ground is good as suggested by Boomdriver
 

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