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LarryK 87

Guest
Has anyone here ever used the "Envrio-Safe" refrigerant?
Just received some i had ordered, it contains the new fittings, hose, and 3 cans of the EC-12 refrigerant.
I am plannng on taking the car down and have the system evacuated (per the instructions), Then recharge it with the new stuff.

So has anyone else used this stuff yet? Thoughts? does it work well?
 
B

boblx2a

Guest
A/C

Never heard of EC-12. I am guessing it is an environmental replacement for R-12, is that correct?
I have two cars ('85vette and '55 Chevy) That require R-12 in their A/C units so I am very interested. I was not too pleased with the conversions to R-134A. Although we also have a Windstar the runs on R-134A and it works great. But I guess that is because it was designed with R-134A in mind. :)

I have read of other replacements for R-12 but they are usually very spendy. There are also places on the web that R-12 can still be had, again it is very spendy.

This sounds like a retro kit for your A/C, where did you get it, etc.


Thanks for any info you might have............
 

Tom73

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2001
Messages
1,427
Location
Round Rock, TX
Corvette
73 LS4 Coupe - 04 CE Conv
Larry,
Just looked on the EPA site and Enviro-Safe or EC-12 is not listed as an approved replacement. Ran a search for Enviro-Safe and found one listing in the Federal Register from back in 2000 when the EPA was looking for info on Enviro-Safe. It had not been approved at that time.

tom...
 
L

LarryK 87

Guest
EC-12 is a drop in replacement for R-134a, but ( per the specs anyway) fully compatable with R-12a systems.

Here is the site with the info.

http://autorefrigerants.com/Envirotechnical.htm

It's claim to fame is it is Envriomentaly safe, and (per them anyway) more effiecient than R-12a and R-134a

i guess i'll be findong out soon, unless there is anyone that used it and found it to be BAD... then i will send it back.
 
E

Eagle85C4

Guest
I have used enviro-safe for three years on both my 85 vette and Blazer. Both still run original R-12, although the fittings had to be changed to the R134 fittings. The Enviro-safe runs much better then the r-134 which is toxic, corrosive and can cause death when inhaled.
I have always been a proponent of researching any product before making any type of statement for or against. It would appear some folks need to do more research prior to making any type statement that shows they do not know what they are talking about.
For the members of the CAC I submit the following:

Research Documents for HC-12a

A quote form one of the articles..."It turns out that HFC-134a's potential for causing environmental damage is just the beginning of its inadequacy as a replacement for Freon. Field experience has shown it to be thermally inefficient, energy consumptive and corrosive to compressor parts. A 1998 study conducted at Wright Patterson AFB in Ohio found that HFC-134a can be deathly toxic to humans who inhale it at levels at or above 4 parts per million. "
My suggestion is to look a bit deeper then looking at an outdated EPA list. You might find that HC-12a is an EPA certified replacement for R-12 and the deadly R-134a.
Keep in mind that this is a multi-billion industry...and who takes the biggest hit when they finally outlaw 134a...and how many lobbiest's are making overtures to the government on the part of those who stand to loose....just a thought and my .02¢ worth...
And I am certified by the EPA for MVAC.
 
B

boblx2a

Guest
A/C

Well Larry it sounds like you may have found something pretty neat. Of course the EPA hasn't yet discovered it. (what a shock!) but from the web page it sounds very good. Also the perfect answer to all of my cars. It has always been a hassle having divided refrigerants. The R-134A is not hard to get but the R-12a is becoming a real pain, not to mention expensive!
Not sure of the manifold gauges, etc. but I am sure one or the other will work. If not there is probably another flavor.

Thanks for the information...............
 
E

Eagle85C4

Guest
Actually if you do a search for " enviro-safe" you will find I mentioned for the first time on here almost a year ago.....:upthumbs
As well showing where to go for the test to get you a card for accessibility to Freon products per the EPA....
 

Tom73

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2001
Messages
1,427
Location
Round Rock, TX
Corvette
73 LS4 Coupe - 04 CE Conv
Eagle85C4 said:
My suggestion is to look a bit deeper then looking at an outdated EPA list. You might find that HC-12a is an EPA certified replacement for R-12 and the deadly R-134a.
I don't think I would call the EPA page out dated, it states was last updated June 6, 2002. Only slightly more then a month old.

But...is Enviro-Safe the comercial name for HC-12a? First post called it EC-12. Could not find anything on EC-12, but for HC-12a the EPA says it is a Flammable blend of hydrocarbons; insufficient data to demonstrate safety and, as such, is an Unacceptable Substitute.

tom...
 
E

Eagle85C4

Guest
From the EPA...

"ENVIRO-SAFE is a zero ozone depleting "second generation" replacement for R-134a and all other substitutes for Freon that are non-ozone depleting. Unlike R134a, it is also non-global-warming . EPA's Final Rule, issued April 1, 1994, states:

"In this final rule, the Agency has determined that second generation replacements, if they are non-ozone depleting and are replacing non-ozone depleting first generation alternatives, are exempt from reporting requirements under Section 612"
 

Tom73

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2001
Messages
1,427
Location
Round Rock, TX
Corvette
73 LS4 Coupe - 04 CE Conv
Link?

Edit: found your quote on the Enviro-Safe page. Interesting reading. They state that it meets the UN Montreal Protocol but not that it is EPA approved. In answer to their own question as to if it is EPA approved, they skirt the issue by saying it is "second generation" but not that the EPA approved it as second gen.

Would love a link to the EPA site that shows it is approved. Anyone?

By the way, I am not trying to cause trouble here, just that there are so many different refregrents out there, I just want to know what is safe/approved and what is not.

tom...
 
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Eagle85C4

Guest
Well if you read that far...you should have read that it does not require EPA certification because it has been proved to be "non ozone depleting" per section 612 of the EPA code. It does not seem to be that hard to understand.
Bottom line is that it works, does not harm the environment and most folks can install it themselves with the kit from Envior-safe for 39.00.
 
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LarryK 87

Guest
Enviro-Safe

well did a bit more reading from both the enviro-Safe web site, GreenPeace Web site, and the EPA web site ( which put me to sleep twice) but i did get through it. The things i noticed are...

1. Per EPA SNAP rules no approval is required. So approved / disapproved does not apply

2. Appears safer than R-134a ( flammability) sp
3. more effiecient than R-12a and R-134a
4. May yield HP when AC is in use
5. Easier on ageing components ( a plus for our ageing cars )
6. If dis-approved then it would NOT be on the market

And of course there are certian other facts outstanding that most HVAC certified guys will prob. back up.

1. One of the biggest causes of Ozone depletion is Chlorine ( prime ingredient in R-12a CFC) However The world is getting more chlorine into the atmosphere from Pools then from R-12a Freon) Thanks Dupont ( your Patient was almost up anyways wink...wink)
2. R-134A is only an interuim solution

This HC-12 ( or what ever ) Envrio-Safe seems like a very reasonable solution to the... Ozone and Global warming AND MVAC issue.
1. Non-depleteing
2. Non-Global warming
3. it seems effecient
4. it's not expensive
5. Non-Toxic
6. Non-Corrosive
7. Readily available

HOWEVER....

my question was.... how well does it work?
Thanks Eagle85C4 for the feed back on your usage. Sounds like you are very satisfied with it. Does it in fact work as well as they claim?
Gonna put it in the Vette first. Then the family car ( a R-134a system)


And thanks Boblx2a for the Kudo's, but i only re-discovered it. It sounded good, so i thought i would give it a try.
and ask the opinions of all on here if they had ever used it, and what their results where. Imagine my surprise to find very few are even aware of it.

And also thanks Tom73 for the info re: EPA. It does make for very dry reading, but informative, once ya get past the "Bureau-Talk"

My concern was the Envrio-safe site did appear to skirt the issue of EPA approved. But then we all know how easy the EPA is to deal with. My only concern with that was, is it legal...
The EPA site answered that.

Now on to more pressing questions....( and Damn this is getting long winded)

Eagle85C4 since you are MVAC certified, a few questions.
the destructions say you may pull up to 10" vacuum when evacuating, BUT do not charge into a Vacuum. Does this mean to equalize to ambient Pressure 0 PSI prior to Charging But it also talks of installing as a liquid as well, is this actually refering to after initial charge?
As i do not have all the equipment to do this safely, i am planning on taking it down to the local shop, have the A/C evacuated, New fittings installed,Then complete the charging myself ( since i doubt they will touch the Envrio-Safe.)
 

Tom73

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2001
Messages
1,427
Location
Round Rock, TX
Corvette
73 LS4 Coupe - 04 CE Conv
Re: Enviro-Safe

LarryK 87 said:
1. Per EPA SNAP rules no approval is required. So approved / disapproved does not apply
Where did you see this? The EPA site does state that the EPA does not test the refergrents, it reviews material from the company and independent labs. They do say that "does not approve or endorse any one refrigerant that is acceptable subject to use conditions over others also in that category." but that just means that the EPA does not approve/endorse one refrigerant over another.


6. If dis-approved then it would NOT be on the market
There are lots of refergrents on the market that are not approved for use in motor vehicles. These refergrents are used in applications such as cooling meat lockers, railroad cars. They "can" be installed in cars but they are not approved for cars.

Also found this on the EPA site: The Clean Air Act only granted EPA the authority to regulate the use of alternative refrigerants, not the sale of them. Even if EPA determines that an alternative is unacceptable, it is still legal to sell it. It goes on to say that if a technician puts it into a customers car, that would be considered "use" and the tech would then be subject to fines and/or jail time. ( http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/snap/refrigerants/buying.html#q9 )

My concern was the Envrio-safe site did appear to skirt the issue of EPA approved. But then we all know how easy the EPA is to deal with. My only concern with that was, is it legal...
If Enviro-safe is HC12a as referenced above, it is not legal for use in motor vehicles. The EPA uses four leves or status for replacement refergrents. They are:

"acceptable subject to use conditions: May be used in any car or truck air conditioning system, provided the technician meets the conditions described above. Note that EPA cannot guarantee that any refrigerant will work in a specific system.

unacceptable: Illegal to use as a substitute for CFC-12 in motor vehicle air conditioners.

proposed acceptable subject to use conditions: May be used legally. EPA will accept public comment on these refrigerants and then make a final ruling. There is no formal EPA position until then, and it is inappropriate for advertising to imply that EPA has found the product acceptable.

not submitted: Illegal to use or sell as a substitute for CFC-12 in motor vehicle air conditioning systems. "

Per the EPA chart at http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/snap/refrigerants/macssubs.html HC-12a is in the unacceptable status.

But if Enviro-Safe is not HC-12a, then all bets are off. Enviro-safe refers to it as ES-12. There is no listing for ES-12. Assume that ES stands for Enviro Safe. Appears to be their logo for the product.

Again, I am not trying to be ornery, I too would like to find a good replacement for R12, but I want one that is in the EPA acceptable grouping.

If anyone knows for sure Enviro-Safe's product ES-12 is not HC-12a, could you please post its correct designation.

I have e-mailed the EPA for additional info on the product. Will post response when received.

tom...
 
E

Eagle85C4

Guest
Larry...

You might run into a problem here.According to the EPA and the class I took to become certified, you will have to have the system checked and "identified" prior to any work being done. Simply the problem is contamination and cross contamination. When the identifier is hooked up it will tell you what is in the system, R-134a or R-12a or what blend might be in the system. The machines are expensive, so before any freon is removed it has to be identified. Now if it is all R-12 then it can be removed and introduced into a container, which also has to be certified, of pure R12 to be disposed of. Similar is the process of 134a. If there is anything else in your system you may not find anyone to remove it from your system, one because it will contaminate the equipment and leave them with no way to dispose of it. Now a lot of folks just wait till no one is looking and crack the hose on the car and let it bleed off, close it up then install whatever. Which if caught gets you a felony, up to 25,000.00 fine and new housing for up to 3 years. Not to mention a new friend called Bubba. What needs to be done is have the existing freon, gas,oil removed, the systen taken completely apart cleaned and flushed, then reassembled with new dryer and orifice tube. Then pull a vacuum of about 30lbs and let it set for an hour. If it does not leak down, remove the hoses and leave the system with the vacuum on it. Then recharge the system, oil first, then the gas. I always include a can of leak detector (which is included with the enviro-safe kit) just to be sure. You will find that along with it's other great qualities, enviro-safe does not need as much to give the same cooling properties as r-12 or r-134.

It is a felony for any person not certified by the EPA Section 609 per the Clean Air Act to work on an automotive a/c system. The fine can be upwards of 25,000.00 and the EPA will pay me up to 10,000.00 for turning in anyone I catch doing it.

For a great explaination go to page 134 of the Chiltons manual for 84-96 corvettes with the yellow one on the cover.

Better yet go to www.qwik.com download the manual, give up 20.00 and take the test and become certified. You can legally purchase freon or 134a and work on the a/c systems.
And in the near future 134 will not be available over the counter. You will need the card to get it.
 
L

LarryK 87

Guest
thanks for the info... will go to the link provided and get the cert.

I am assuming ( a bad thing to do i know ) that the system is still R-12a and as such can be evacuated. and of course tested for leaks.

My kit did not include leak detector, differant kit maybe? three cans of envrio-safe, New fittings, and charge hose.
 
E

Eagle85C4

Guest
You can go back to them for the leak detector...well worth the extra 6-8 bucks...
 

Tom73

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2001
Messages
1,427
Location
Round Rock, TX
Corvette
73 LS4 Coupe - 04 CE Conv
Eagle85C4 said:
Better yet go to www.qwik.com download the manual, give up 20.00 and take the test and become certified. You can legally purchase freon or 134a and work on the a/c systems. And in the near future 134 will not be available over the counter. You will need the card to get it.
It would also be a good idea to check you state and local laws. The 609 Cert is required to purchase R12, and soon for 134a it appears, but you may have some local law that will cause issues. Where I am there is a city/county law that to by R12 you must have recycling/recovery equipment. The inspectors will go to the auto parts store and get their list of who purchased R12 (they required to keep a listing). They will then go to the purchaser to confirm that they have the approprate equipment. So the trick here is to go to the next county over to by R12 :D

tom...
 

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