Any Body Running a FI Vette?

[iron cross]

For those of you or us that have been blessed with FI Vettes there is a National problem of drivability with pump gas. Pump premium will not help either. Apparently the gas companies have either added or removed some properties that will and does effect and cause hard starting and absolutely poor running conditions. If your experiencing a similar problem or conditions, it`s not the FI unit, but it`s the gas. I have not found that mixing 108-110 with pump gas will help FI Vettes either. If you want the fun of a FI Vette again the only good cure is a tank full of pure racing gas.

 

[Fuelie]

Hi Wally,

I have found that the gas quality has deteriorated greatly over the last number of years. I have difficulty with the gas percolating / vaporizing easier when restarting after a 20 minute "heat soak". Although this has always occured to a degree, it takes longer to get it to "clean out". It is much the same as a number of years ago when you would fill up with winter gas that had additivies to make it evaporate faster. The problem is that it seems to have degraded to a greater degree all during the season.

I am still running 11.0 pistons, although with a thicker head gasket, and have not experienced any signs of detonation, as long as I use a minimum of pump 94 octane.

It is interesting that there is no blend of good / bad gas that will improve this issue.

Thanks for the heads up........now I will have to find a convenient source of racing gas

Take care,
Brian

 

[bossvette]

just a thought I wonder how much work it would be to convert to a modern EFI and keep your Vintage looks with the new electronics I remember seeing a company that was retro fiitting old Hillborn and dual quads for EFI you had to look real close to see it wasn't original.

 

[clint4vette]

I to am running 11.2 : 1 pistons and the stock solid cam. She dyno'd with the FI unit at 392HP. I wanted to keep it to spec's and stock.
I just got her done and am only finishing up on some last minute details (clock & radio). My engine builder broke my motor in on the dyno using 104 Octane gas. When I brought the motor home to install it, I stopped by and got 5 gallons of 100 Cam 2. I have since run it all out and have switched to pump 93 and a few ounces of Tetra Ethel per tank. This Max Lead (pr Jack Podell) brings her up to 100. I've had no ill effects from the fuel I'm concockting.
I did go to hardened seats and stainless valves while we were in the heads.
I think I will always cary a quart or two of this lead additive to keep the octaine rating at or above 100.
Clint

 

[Fuelie]

Hi Craig,

It is always tempting......modern powertrain with a SRIII tube chassis and C5 suspension.....the best of both worlds. Cruise in looks and "long legs" for trips on almost any fuel.

Take care,
Brian

 

[clint4vette]

just a thought I wonder how much work it would be to convert to a modern EFI and keep your Vintage looks with the new electronics I remember seeing a company that was retro fiitting old Hillborn and dual quads for EFI you had to look real close to see it wasn't original.

Now that is a very interesting concept!
Do you have any information on this topic or contact information?
To stay stock in appearance and have the benifits of modern technology would be/ could be very interesting.

 

[bossvette]

Look in Street Rodder or Hot Rod type magazines that is where I saw it, I cant remember the name of the company though.

 

[JohnZ]

I have since run it all out and have switched to pump 93 and a few ounces of Tetra Ethel per tank. This Max Lead (pr Jack Podell) brings her up to 100.
Clint

That's Podell marketing hype - no way in the world that stuff will bring a tank of fuel from 93 up to 100 octane - it's over 99% kerosene, and it's against the law to sell tetraethyl lead. :eyerole

 

[Tom Bryant]

just a thought I wonder how much work it would be to convert to a modern EFI and keep your Vintage looks with the new electronics I remember seeing a company that was retro fiitting old Hillborn and dual quads for EFI you had to look real close to see it wasn't original.

Just put on one of these and save the Rochester for later.

http://www.azspeed-marine.com/sudrtopinsy.html

 

[clint4vette]

That's Podell marketing hype - no way in the world that stuff will bring a tank of fuel from 93 up to 100 octane - it's over 99% kerosene, and it's against the law to sell tetraethyl lead. :eyerole

John,
The contents label states on the side of the bottle, "Tetra Ethel Lead"
I did some extensive research on this and recieved data from more than one source other than the formentioned. It is the real thing, lead and not kerosene. Its use may be restricted, but from what I gather, its sale isn't.

 

[c5vetter]

so you want to know about Tetraethyllead - check out this link!


http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/ethylwar/

 

[iron cross]

Tom, that is exactly the answer. Looks close enough and will probably get great milage with only pump premium. I would hate to do it, however I may get forced into it. Thanks for the information.

Wally Knoch

 

[Tom Bryant]

Wally,
They make a straight top plenum also but brought out this sloped front plenum especially for low Corvette hoods. They cost more than some of the other aftermarket units but, to me, the resemblance to the Rochester is worth it.

Tom

 

[Ken Anderson]

For those of you or us that have been blessed with FI Vettes there is a National problem of drivability with pump gas. Pump premium will not help either. Apparently the gas companies have either added or removed some properties that will and does effect and cause hard starting and absolutely poor running conditions. If your experiencing a similar problem or conditions, it`s not the FI unit, but it`s the gas. I have not found that mixing 108-110 with pump gas will help FI Vettes either. If you want the fun of a FI Vette again the only good cure is a tank full of pure racing gas.

Fuel units were always hard to start in the summer, but poor running is not due to gas, but probably a lean condition. You need to set the unit up differently for summer and winter and be able to use a manometer.

 

[iron cross]

Fuel units were always hard to start in the summer, but poor running is not due to gas, but probably a lean condition. You need to set the unit up differently for summer and winter and be able to use a manometer.

Hello Ken,
Not necessarily so if there correct. My Duece is running before your hand is off the key and thats the way it always starts. Octane is not the fault either, it`s the temperature that the fuel boils from the spider under the doghouse. Heat had never affected it up until a couple of years ago. Summer temperatures were also never an issue if Miami weather is considered summer. The turbo blue resolved my FI drivability problems as it now runs perfect again.

 

[Kid_Again]

There are lots of legends about TEL and I did some surfing over lunch time and would appreciate anyone telling me if I got this wrong.

I can find no Law which makes it illegal to sell, distribute or own TEL. I was on the EPA site and GPO (Government Printing Office). I can imagine that handling TEL in its undiluted state would require some sort of permit, making it unlawful to distribute without permission. Lead is HIGHLY poisonous to humans in any form.

EPA publishes a current specification for leaded gas. One article on the Web (accuracy unknown) states that 20% of gas sold today in the US is leaded.

TEL is manufactured by Ethyl Corporation, a subsidiary of NewMarket Corporation, Richmond, VA. Their current Quaterly Report states ->

"Tetraethyl lead (TEL) operating profit for the first quarter of this year was $0.2 million, compared to $4.3 million for the first quarter of 2005. The lower profit in the first quarter of this year reflects much lower shipments. Income from the TEL segment may vary greatly from quarter to quarter with shipments and earnings in 2006 expected to be significantly lower than last year"

TEL is referred to as a "sunset business" on their website.

I'm sure that the TEL stuff sold today is mostly kerosene. I assume there has to be SOME lead in there but it makes sense that most of the claims are marketing hype

 

[Hib Halverson]

The statement above, that 20% of the gas sold in the U.S. is leaded is B.S....at least B.S. from a practical standpoint.

It may be "legal" to sell leaded gasoline but....EPA severely regulates the amount of lead in gasoline and it's so small that the gasoline is truly unleaded. The only leaded gasoline dispensed into vehicles today is AVGAS and even that is "low lead" and it only can be dispensed into a fuel tank of an airplane or into a container which the vendor knows is going to be used to pour fuel into an airplane. The only other leaded gas sold is racing gasoline and is not for use in road vehicles.

It is true that tetraethyl lead (TEL) is highly toxic. It is absorbed through the skin and causes illness or death. While you may find products which claim to contain TEL, the amount of tetraethyl lead is so small, that it is of dubious effectiveness in making a practical increase in the octane of gasoline.

If Jack Podel is selling some TEL additive which he claims you can pour it in the tank of a C1-C3 equipped with a high-compression, high-performance or special-high-performance engine, then run the typical 91-oct pump gas, he's out of touch with reality.

I've done a fair amount of testing of gasolines (see http://www.idavette.net/hib/fuel/index.htm) and no pour-in octane booster can be that effective, other than the few of them which use the active ingrediant "MMT". Unfortunately, once you put enough MMT in a booster and use enough of that booster to raise the R+M/2 octane to 95 or 96 you bring a host of other problems to your engine.

There are no free lunches. To run a pre-1970 11:1 motor on the street, today, and drive it aggressively you need 1) have hard valve seats in the heads and use enough unleaded racing gas to get you up to 96 oct (R+M/2) or 2) start mixing unleaded pump gas with leaded racing gas.

Octane boosters won't do it...at least not safely and practically.

Retarded timing won't do it, either.

Lastly, this problem is related to compression ratio and spark timing, NOT the existence of Rochester Fuel Injection. High-compression, four-barrel engines have the same problem.

 

[c5vetter]

Hib,

thanks for cogent response! I mix 93 octane along with FIVE gallons of 110 ocatane CAM 2 at every other fill-up, in my 1963 Z06 (hard seats upon rebuild) - seems to make the LADY purr!

 

[clint4vette]

It is true that tetraethyl lead (TEL) is highly toxic. It is absorbed through the skin and causes illness or death. While you may find products which claim to contain TEL, the amount of tetraethyl lead is so small, that it is of dubious effectiveness in making a practical increase in the octane of gasoline.

If Jack Podel is selling some TEL additive which he claims you can pour it in the tank of a C1-C3 equipped with a high-compression, high-performance or special-high-performance engine, then run the typical 91-oct pump gas, he's out of touch with reality.

I've done a fair amount of testing of gasolines (see http://www.idavette.net/hib/fuel/index.htm) and no pour-in octane booster can be that effective, other than the few of them which use the active ingrediant "MMT". Unfortunately, once you put enough MMT in a booster and use enough of that booster to raise the R+M/2 octane to 95 or 96 you bring a host of other problems to your engine.

There are no free lunches. To run a pre-1970 11:1 motor on the street, today, and drive it aggressively you need 1) have hard valve seats in the heads and use enough unleaded racing gas to get you up to 96 oct (R+M/2) or 2) start mixing unleaded pump gas with leaded racing gas.

Octane boosters won't do it...at least not safely and practically.

Retarded timing won't do it, either.

Lastly, this problem is related to compression ratio and spark timing, NOT the existence of Rochester Fuel Injection. High-compression, four-barrel engines have the same problem.[/quote]

Hib,
That's a lot of information. It, combined with the Radford College research information posted earlier, all indicate Tetra Ethyl Lead is a powerfull substance even in small quantities.
A clip from your post;

The octane and valve-seat-durability enhancing qualities of alkyl-lead compounds (chiefly tetraethyl lead, aka: “TEL” or just “lead”) were discovered in 1922 by General Motors. By the late-’20s, “leaded” gas became available and, by the early ’50s, TEL was in virtually all gas sold in the U.S. By the late-’60s, “super premiums” averaged 3.5-grams TEL per gallon and were around 100 RON. While TEL was a cheap way to improve engine performance and durability, it is toxic, both unburned and in lead-oxide-particulate form in exhaust gases.

This would have us believe that 100 rating gas might have 3.5 grams of lead in it. I'm taking an open minded approach to this. Were looking for alternatives to overcome the problems that arise using todays 93 rated gas. I see that the additives listed in your write up do not contain lead, and are not an effective alternative.
I''m looking at a bottle of Max Lead 2000. It states on the bottle, "Contains 14.8 Grams Tetra Ethyl Lead".
Not knowing what the base rating was that 3.5 grams of lead made it 100 rated (from above), I can only assume. If we estimated that the base was in the neighborhood of between 87 and 93, then we could assume 1 quart of this product would raise 5 gallons of 93 rated gas to 100 rated.
93 rated gas in my town is $2.75 a gallon oor 5 gallons at $13.75
A quart of this product is $7.00 Added to the 93 gas, 5 gallons would cost $20.75 or $4.15 a gallon.
A quart of this (14.8 grams of TEL) to 20 gallons of 93 may actualy reach the 96 number considered above (in red) as a possible safe minimum level for High Perf applicatons.
The more posts & data that come in on this topic, the more I'm convinced this an option I don't want to ignore.

Though I don't believe this to be the golden rainbow, I can carry a couple quarts in the compartment and always be assured I have high grade gas in a pinch.
The more I get out, I will be testing the amount it takes to stay in the performance range. When I rebuilt, I went with stainless valves and hardned seats. I'm running 11.2 : 1 pistons and the stock solid lift cam.
Thank you for all the information, this is why this is such a great group. We share!

 

[JoelF]

To run a pre-1970 11:1 motor on the street, today, and drive it aggressively you need 1) have hard valve seats in the heads

I disagree with that statement. Unless you are towing or doing some serious hill climbing, the valve seats in cast iron heads will be just fine for most of us without hardened seats or TEL. It is true that recession will occur, but at a rate that is so slow it will take years for it to manifest itself (150k plus miles).