Baby update 3-4-05

[BarryK]

Hi all

I went to check on Baby yesterday at the paint shop.
We had a few days delay this week - one day because of snow and than two days on Thrus and Fri because of the paint supplier.
We should have had the insides of the doors and the door jambs sprayed in base color on Thrus than clear coated Fri than the doors reinstalled ready to spray the entire body by this Mon but when the paint supplier dropped off the first sample of paint ordered Thrus morning the tint was way off plus way too much metallic mixed in it so they had to go back and remix it. The shop was waiting for the new batch to show up Fri morning when I was there.
Assuming it came yesterday after I left AND the tint is correct this time than these areas will get sprayed on Mon.

the tops of the inside of the doors have already gotten sprayed in black along with the underside of the hood and these areas are masked off to protect it when the Maroon base is sprayed.

You can see some red on the doors and door jambs areas in the pics - this is a red-tinted sealer over the primer. Because the base color is Milano Maroon, using a red based sealer underneath it allows the base color to cover more effectively without having a gray colored primer seep thru.
Once the door insides and door jambs are done, the doors will be reinstalled and the rest of the body will get the same red-tinted sealer over the primer before spraying the base coats.

We are really getting down to the wire now - I reminded my shop that I NEED Baby back and 100% done and perfect in 11-12 days.
The first event of the season with my Vette Club is on the 20th but i'll need the car a few days beforehand to get her all cleaned up - wash the dust out from the engine compartment, clean the interior, polish all the chrome and SS trim, etc.
He promises me she will be done on time.........I have fingers on both hands, and toes on both feet crossed to make sure this happens!
As long as everything else stays on track it shouldn't be a problem. She will get sprayed in base color, wet sanded and clear coated next week and than the beginning of the following week will be for final buffing out of the paint and reassembly before I have to pick her up by that Wed or Thrus (the 16th or 17). If needed I can "push" the timeline to give him an extra day and wait until the 18th to pick her up but I don't want to cut it that close

After the last 7 months, it will be great to finally see Baby come home again soon to reclain her spot in my garage where she belongs.


more pics as usual - nothing too exciting yet, but even small progress is still progress.



Barry

 

[paul67]

Barry,
My 1967 is going to be flat-bedded to the paint shop on Tuesday (I will not drive on Canadian salt) and I have a few questions re controlling contract costs. I do not expect a firm quote pre-stripping but I am a little concerned about cost over-runs that are unreasonable. I do have an approximate quote and am willing to go 10% above but not more. How did you control the cost situation? I saw some of the post-strip surprises in your earlier pics. It seems to me that when the strip is done the shop has you by the you-know-whats. But I must emphasize that the company has a good reputation. My current heeby-jeebies reflect some of your previous nervousness. I would very much appreciate your comments.

You may e-mail me if you wish.

 

[BarryK]

Hi Paul

it's good to be concerned when taking your car in. Especially on 40 year old cars you are never quite sure what you may find under the paint once it's stripped.

I really can't answer for any other shops since previous to this the only time my cars have been in body/paint shops have been because of accidents and the insurance was paying so any increase after the job was accepted was all on the insurance.
On this job on my Vette, my shop gave me a set price and even after finding a few extra "surprises" during the stripping and repairs he never came back and told me there would be any increase in the price. Than again, he has been specializing in older Vettes for 30 years so by now I imagine he can look at a car beforehand and know what he is getting into and what to expect without any MAJOR "surprises" popping up. While we had a few things crop up during the work it wasn't anything big except for the extra couple of days it took to grind off all the Bondo we found on the car from a previous repair(s).
When we first discussed the qoute on the job we shook hands and that was that but after taking with Larry (IHate2Lose) it made me reconsider the possible disadvantage of this and I myself drew up a letter that stated everything that was quoted and the price that was given and had us both sign it as a contract. that way if any problems came up during or after the job was finished I had something in writing with our signatures on it.
Also, as the job progressed, I payed him partial amounts at the end of completetion of set steps.
I paid him partial amounts after the stripping, after the fiberglass repairs, after applying the sealer I paid a little more to cover his costs in purchasing the papint supplies (primer, base, and clear coat because the paints are surprising expensive).
At this point, only a small remaining balance is left for when the job is completely finished.

As I mentioned earlier, I can't compare how my shop differes from others but I did recieve a firm qioute on the total job. I can't imagine why another shop such as yours can't do the same thing if they are experienced in working on Vettes. If they know these cars than they should already have a pretty good idea after they look at your car just how much time they need and therefore a solid set price. From the condition of your car I'd guess the underlying body is probaly in better condition than what mine ended up being so again they should give you a firm price. If they are not willing to do that, than at least get in writing that any cost increases because of additional work can't exceed a set percentage of the original price quote. I really feel if the shop you choose is good and experienced in working on Vettes than they should have a good handle on giving a proper qoute to begin with and it really shouldn't have to exceed that amount. If it does, than they aren't properly qualified to have given a quote in the first place. At least that's how I would look at it.

On my job, the only "extra" amount i'm paying was for a few replacement items. for example, innstead of using the same SS windshield moldings that were on the car I purchased new molding and clips ( the old moldings were somewhat dented by previous misuse of prior owners). Same on having to buy new winshield and rear glass gaskets because we pulled the glass out and the gaskets can't be reused. This also included new weatherstripping on the doors because this also really can't be reused once you rip it off and to paint the doors properly the weatherstripping has to come off.
Believe me, once you remove certain items off the car, you WILL decide you want to replace or refinish them, whether it's the moldings, or the chrome bumpers, or the emblems, or whatever. You will have something to replace or refinsh simply because you will realize that you don't want to see that "old looking piece" back on the car as it is against the shiney new paintjob.

The best advice I can give that I learned from doing this is:
1. get your quote in WRITING and have both yourself and the shop sign it (THANKS LARRY)
2. if they can't garuantee their own price quote than have a set allowable % increase as part of the contract that it can't go over.
3. Know in advance what parts the shops is including in their price qoute and what parts they may expect you to pay for yourself.
(we agreed beforehand that any parts needed such as the new weatherstripping, windshield and rear window gaskets, new moldings I wanted to replace, etc., that I would buy myself and deliver to the shop when needed rather than him ordering them)
4. set up a payment schedule so that they get paid as stages of the job get completed. This allows the shop to see cash flow as they are working on the car and keeps them moving on it. If they want to see the next payment they will show you progress made on the car. this should also help you out as it will probably speed up the job a bit because the shop knows as long as they keep working on your car they keep seeing cash flow. Without cash flow for the shop they may be forced to bring in other jobs while yours is also there to get the cash flow and the time on those cars slows down the time spent on yours - delaying you.

I'm sure others on here with far more experience in dealing with body / paint shops will chime in and mention any mistakes I might have made in my own dealings, plus add some hard-earned advice of their own.
Unfortunately, many of the things you learn to do correctly, you only learn from realizing the mistakes you had to make first and this being my first experience getting a car repainted, let alone a classic car and a Vette, I'm sure I made more than my share of mistakes on this myself that others would tell me I should have done differently.

Well, I really seemed to have dragged this reply to you out a lot more than I expected to. I hope at least some of it is a little bit helpful.

good luck!!!


Barry

 

[paul67]

Barry,
Thanks for that very informative reply! I have printed it out and will consider matters before Tuesday. I don't wish to back out on the deal but I have some hesitations. This fellow did my 1979 L-82 rather grandly so I have some confidence. Damn, these things can make a person nervous! And it is a lot of money for non-Barrett/Jackson people.

 

[BarryK]

Paul

I just sent you a PM with some other info you may find helpful

Barry

 

[IH2LOSE]

Barry best of luck with the scheduled up coming show,Dont panic if he does not meat the dead line.You have come this far no need to give the guy (or yourself)a heart attack.

 

[IH2LOSE]

4. set up a payment schedule so that they get paid as stages of the job get completed. This allows the shop to see cash flow as they are working on the car and keeps them moving on it. If they want to see the next payment they will show you progress made on the car. this should also help you out as it will probably speed up the job a bit because the shop knows as long as they keep working on your car they keep seeing cash flow. Without cash flow for the shop they may be forced to bring in other jobs while yours is also there to get the cash flow and the time on those cars slows down the time spent on yours - delaying you.

This I disagree with barry on and I shared it with him in a conversation.I understand his method,but the cash flow is the shops problem not mine.The deal I make is a ernest deposit when I drop off the car,Balance of job on completion,If the guy want to get paid all he has to do is finish my car.this shop has done alot of cars for me so we have a relationship,The first car I dropped off to him he did question my ablity to pay for the car on completion,I went to the bank that day and opened a savings account and deposited our agreed on price and gave him the book to hold,Since that day we never had a problem.My fear of progress payments are that a shop will bring your car to a point to get a payment then once they get a payment they start on getting the next car to a point of a progress payment, well you get the idea

 

[BarryK]

Larry

i understand your concern of this method, I think this is something that could differ from shop to shop and with many shops i could easy see your issues with this method causing a major problem.
in my case with this particulat shop this method is what was going to work best to keep the job moving.
Yes, cash flow IS the shops problem, not mine, but on the other hand if they are a very small shop like this one happened to be and there is no cash flow, than the shop is forced to bring in other jobs to create that just to stay open and it does become my problem as my scheduled time-linne falls further and further behind as he works on the other cars.
This method may not be best for every shop or everyone, but in my case I think it worked to the best advantage in this case.

Barry

 

[IH2LOSE]

Larry

i understand your concern of this method, I think this is something that could differ from shop to shop and with many shops i could easy see your issues with this method causing a major problem.
in my case with this particulat shop this method is what was going to work best to keep the job moving.
Yes, cash flow IS the shops problem, not mine, but on the other hand if they are a very small shop like this one happened to be and there is no cash flow, than the shop is forced to bring in other jobs to create that just to stay open and it does become my problem as my scheduled time-linne falls further and further behind as he works on the other cars.
This method may not be best for every shop or everyone, but in my case I think it worked to the best advantage in this case.

Barry

Barry

Your system is working well with the shop your using,I did not mean to make you have to defend the way your conducting buisness,No disrespect to you was meant.

 

[vette]

Guys no offense but you make body shops and guys that work on these cars sound like crooks. If your using a small shop or a one man shop maybe he can absorb some extra work. But nobody and I don't care how long they have worked on corvettes or any other cars can tell for sure what is under the paint on your car. Some things are easy for a pro to see. I can see repairs that have been done a mile away in most cases. But to say you want a firm price before the car is stripped is asking alot. I think some of the guys on here that have done there own work can see just how much labor it takes. When you go to work you want to be payed. Well when it comes to body work and paint we always get the ( that's alot of money) from the customer. And if you give to good a price then thats the guy that comes and crys about the smallest thing. You wiil pay a plumber or elec. or heating and cooling guy way more per hour then the poor slob in the body shop sanding your car eatting dust and painting with toxic mat. and then needing to get every little thing perfect on your toy. And then he's the first one you will B---- at when you find some little imperfection.I think that the guys sitting behide a desk all day and get payed way more than they are worth should strip there own car just once and then tell me if it's worth paying the price. The people with Vettes that come to me with that I don't want to pay more than this crap are told with respect to go elsewhere. Vettes with nice clean bodys are easy. but most are not that nice anymore and take alot of work and skill to make look good. Sorry for the long rant but I see this all the time and it bugs me. If anyone that dose this work for a living and thinks i'm wrong Please tell me. Maybe its just me.

 

[BarryK]

Larry

no need to apologise. You make a very valid point and with many shops I can see the possiblility of problems arising using my payment method. This may not be the best way of doing it and just because it is working in my particular case it may not work for others. It's good you bring up the opposite view so others can see both sides of the situation and decide for themselves what would be the best method they should take for themselves. Hell, from my inexperience in having work like this done I'm open to the idea that my method is completely wrong and everyone else on here agrees with you. In that case I guess I just got very lucky that it didn't come back to bite me in the a**.

How is your project coming along?

Barry

 

[IH2LOSE]

Guys no offense but you make body shops and guys that work on these cars sound like crooks. If your using a small shop or a one man shop maybe he can absorb some extra work. But nobody and I don't care how long they have worked on corvettes or any other cars can tell for sure what is under the paint on your car. Some things are easy for a pro to see. I can see repairs that have been done a mile away in most cases. But to say you want a firm price before the car is stripped is asking alot. I think some of the guys on here that have done there own work can see just how much labor it takes. When you go to work you want to be payed. Well when it comes to body work and paint we always get the ( that's alot of money) from the customer. And if you give to good a price then thats the guy that comes and crys about the smallest thing. You wiil pay a plumber or elec. or heating and cooling guy way more per hour then the poor slob in the body shop sanding your car eatting dust and painting with toxic mat. and then needing to get every little thing perfect on your toy. And then he's the first one you will B---- at when you find some little imperfection.I think that the guys sitting behide a desk all day and get payed way more than they are worth should strip there own car just once and then tell me if it's worth paying the price. The people with Vettes that come to me with that I don't want to pay more than this crap are told with respect to go elsewhere. Vettes with nice clean bodys are easy. but most are not that nice anymore and take alot of work and skill to make look good. Sorry for the long rant but I see this all the time and it bugs me. If anyone that dose this work for a living and thinks i'm wrong Please tell me. Maybe its just me.

Sorry if it comes out as me thinking there crooks not my intention,

I never negociate with my body shop for his services,He knows how many man hours it will take his shop to prep a car for paint, paint the car,buff the car,,and I know his rate for car painting,

He some how guess the man hours for the body work and I agree to that. I have never gave him an assembled or painted car,I always give hime a disasembled car with all of the sins out for him to see.He also knows what his material cost will be.

I am very generous with his staff in tips and I know they go the extra yard for my when doing my cars.You know this is the first car I gave him on a rotisery and the owner had said it saved him countless hours in labor and he almost felt like he should discount his price a tad-I reminded him of the problems he had on my Cadillac with Fish Eyeing ( he had to repaint the entire car because the paint was fish eyeing on all of the lower surfaces) the manufacturer of the paint supplied new paint but he had to eat all of the extra labor. So I never negoceate a service related companies charges.I also know he has to earn a profit to stay in buisness and dont dispute his charges, I pay top dollar for the work and am thrilled with his work.The only thing is I WILL NOT make progress payments.I leave a deposit then pay on completion.I used to hold back a 10 % retention until 60 days after the car was done to encourage him to fix any problems should they apear but after the first car was done by him I realised That was not needed

I own a service related buisness so I know excactly what your feeling.I deal with it on a dailey basis.

But I always say this.To the average car owner this is a hobby,to the average repair shop this is a buisness and ther lively hood.So the average car owner must treat a repair to his car excactly as the other party is treating it a buisness deal.

They must have a clear understanding of whats being done,who is responecibe for what,if the original parts are going back on,or if new parts are being used.are they doing all of the door jambs or just taping them off,are they using new weather strip or painting around them,are they removing all of the bumpers and trim or painting around them. MAKE NO ASSUMPTONS on whats being done.Are they correcting or dealing with gaps or leaving them as is.

As for payment at the end I dont have to tell you about all of the horror stories of cars sitting in shops waiting for the shop to find the time to do them,Some may be sitting because the owner ran out of money,But others are sitting because the shop is doing more profitable work and putting off the restoration.

Thanks again for the header panel

Larry

 

[BarryK]

Guys no offense but you make body shops and guys that work on these cars sound like crooks. If your using a small shop or a one man shop maybe he can absorb some extra work. But nobody and I don't care how long they have worked on corvettes or any other cars can tell for sure what is under the paint on your car. Some things are easy for a pro to see. I can see repairs that have been done a mile away in most cases. But to say you want a firm price before the car is stripped is asking alot. I think some of the guys on here that have done there own work can see just how much labor it takes. When you go to work you want to be payed. Well when it comes to body work and paint we always get the ( that's alot of money) from the customer. And if you give to good a price then thats the guy that comes and crys about the smallest thing. You wiil pay a plumber or elec. or heating and cooling guy way more per hour then the poor slob in the body shop sanding your car eatting dust and painting with toxic mat. and then needing to get every little thing perfect on your toy. And then he's the first one you will B---- at when you find some little imperfection.I think that the guys sitting behide a desk all day and get payed way more than they are worth should strip there own car just once and then tell me if it's worth paying the price. The people with Vettes that come to me with that I don't want to pay more than this crap are told with respect to go elsewhere. Vettes with nice clean bodys are easy. but most are not that nice anymore and take alot of work and skill to make look good. Sorry for the long rant but I see this all the time and it bugs me. If anyone that dose this work for a living and thinks i'm wrong Please tell me. Maybe its just me.

Hi Vette
sorry, i missed your post earlier, it must have been done while I was still replying to Larry's.

please don't misunderstand me. I have nothing but the utmost respect for most shops and especially for the particular one working on my car. As always, there are bad shops out there also but you can find that in ANY business.
I fully understand your point about not really knowing what's under the paint until it's stripped off - it can be hiding a lot of bad things. My point was only that an experienced shop or bodyman should at least have a fairly good idea of what to expect if he properly and thoughly inspects the car beforehand. No, he may not see everything, but I suspect that at least he should be able to see anything MAJOR. If he can't see that at least than maybe he isn't experienced enough? If I'm wrong i'm willing to admit that and just shut the hell up. As I mentionned before, this is my first time dealing with a shop on this kind of job and don't even pretend to know very much about it - only what I've learned a bit thru this experience over the last 7 months.
Perhaps you are 100% correct and asking for a firm price is unreasonable, but in my case that's what I was given and not knowing any different I took this to be normal. perhaps my case was the exception to the rule? or maybe that the "surprises" we found after the paint was stripped were not significant enough to warrant my guy having to increase his price to me?
In either case, I guess maybe I just got lucky.
I 100% agree with you and Larry that every bodyshop out there is there to make a living and they deserve their profit. My family has always owned their own business so I understand that completely and have no problem with it whatsoever. I see the work my guy has put into my car at his shop (it's a one-man operation) and it's hard work that I wouldn't want to have to do myself at all even if i was able to which i'm not and he deserves every penny that i'm paying him. I was at the shop too many days just as he was stripping the car with chemical strippers and i'll be the first to say that it's the dirtiest, nastiest job to do and I don't envy anyone having to do it and that alone is worth the money I'm paying him for just so I don't have to do it.
Sorry if my posts gave you the wrong idea of where I was coming from or how I deal with these things in general. I know that sometimes when I'm explaining something I tend to focus on the little detail stuff sometimes too much and when I go back to look at the entire post as a whole the detail info may be correct but the message as a whole may be wrong or just come out sounding wrong or different than I intended. If that happened in this case and you took offense than I give you my deepest apologies.
On the other hand.........just to play devils advocate, as Larry has said many times you must deal with any shop as a business, not a hobby, and I agree with that. almost any other people I deal with such as Heating/AC repair companies, appliance repairs, motor repair, house repair, etc give me a firm price before starting the job (after inpecting the work needed of course) and it's agreed to and I dealt with my paint shop in the same manner.

Larry mentioned that he never negotiates with his shop. Well, in my case I didn't either. He gave me a set price and I agreed to it because it sounded fair especially compared to other prices I had gotten and it was within my budget at the time.

I hope this helps explain a little better where I was coming from in my others posts.

Barry

 

[vette]

Barry and Larry I did not mean to make it sound like I was talking just about you guys. I mean in general. When I see posts about people wanting to know how much it costs to have a car done sometimes they cry about prices alittle to much. When you think about it, the body and paint are all anyone sees when the car is done. Anyone can detail a chassis (most of the time flat black,thats real hard) or make an eng. comp. look nice and new. But the paint is what makes or breaks the car. Guys will spend tons on Matching numbers parts or trim ,chrome and so on but when it comes time for the body and paint man the tears start coming. I just think people should give a little more credit to the guy thats work counts the most! And remember also these are not like doing steel cars. Glass is funny stuff and weird things can happen no matter how good the guy is. I'v seen things that go wrong even with the best. So that just makes it worse when people B---- about the price. Most shops will stand behind there work even if it is not there fault. As far as payment go's. I never take a dime until the job is done. No reason I just like it that way. Brian G.

 

[JohnZ]

We are really getting down to the wire now - I reminded my shop that I NEED Baby back and 100% done and perfect in 11-12 days.
The first event of the season with my Vette Club is on the 20th but i'll need the car a few days beforehand to get her all cleaned up - wash the dust out from the engine compartment, clean the interior, polish all the chrome and SS trim, etc. Barry

Barry, don't get caught up in a "deadline" mentality to get the car done in time for a Corvette Club event; there are lots of events, and lots of time once you get the car back to finish it up RIGHT. With all the money you've spent and the time you've waited for your guy to do a professional job, don't rush it at the end just to make an event. Take your time and relax - let your guy do his work at the pace he's comfortable with, and let him deal with any issues that come up in a professional manner, not a "gotta get it done" manner.

 

[BarryK]

John

thanks. you are completely correct. I really would like it back for this first event, but after all this time already spent why rush it the last week or two.
I did tell him back in Sept I wanted the car by the begining of March but a few weeks one way or the other really won't kill me. It's just that as I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel it gets harder and harder to stay patient. Luckily it's still cold here and snow on the ground but if we come across a really nice warm day I'll be jumping out of my skin itching to get back in her drivers seat!

If the car misses this event on the 20th than I'll live with it - it after 7 months it would be nice.......

Barry

 

[1KULC7]

Barry,

It's progressing along fine. Listen to JohnZ, and my experience is this. Forget about events and shows, you will have plenty to go too in the future. You are in the most critical part of the entire project and the thing you don't want to do is put pressure on the painter at this point. You must let the painter do his job and do it on his own time, afterall I don't think you want to a an "OVERHAUL" paint job. What takes the time is the color sanding by HAND between coats, and this is the most critical part of the paint job, because one slip over a sharp edge and you got to repain that part again then resand again.

Really Barry, take on the attitude of when its finished its finished but its done right and you get the million dollar paint job.

Again let up on the painter, you have been listening to him all along and he has done a great job for you, don't push him to a deadline...if its down great, if not, let him do it right.... It is looking really good.

 

[BarryK]

Hi Collin

yeah, I know........I can't rush him at this point, but it sure is getting harder and harder not to want my car back after 7 months.
I've decided that if it's done in time for my show on the 20th than great, but if it's not done than it's not done. I know enough not to want him to rush through all the painting and wet sanding. After all the time spent prepping the body, it would be a shame to have the painting itself rushed and end up with less quality than Baby deserves.
I don't think the painting itself probably takes too much time, but all the wetsanding between coats has to be pretty time consuming.

How is your motor repair or replacement going?

Barry

 

[1KULC7]

Barry,

Like yours, slow but sure. Sent block out and it was magnaflexed, and bored out for new sleeves. They are putting in sleeves today returning it to the original bore (YEAH). Next step will be assembly, the heads are being magnaflexed and cleaned up. So assembly should begine in next two weeks.

In the mean time, I took my Starter, alternator, and voltage regulator to my friends Auto Electrical Shop in Hanover, PA. My friend is into NOVAs like we are into Corvettes. Well we found the Starter was off a 1967 Buick, made 22 October 1966. The Alternator 100% correct, he is cleaning it up, and I got a voltage regulator that was a Japanese piece of junk, so we have located another one that is correct and dated Jan 63.

Also found my distributor was wrong and needed to get one with a later can to correct the idle problems of the 63...seems like the original cans used did not work correctly on the L76 Solid Lifter engine, and I am replacing it with a 65-66 Can for better vacuum. 63 only provide 8" of vacuum and I need more like 16" of vacuum for better idle and runs cooler. So I found a better distributer, No I got to find a Delco distributer CAP that is acceptable for NCRS.....without spending $300.00 for one....

Also working on a couple of other smaller engine parts. Like the coil which is an embossed Delco Coil, think I located one of those.

Sorry you asked....also have replaced the radiator with a DeWitt, Dated Aluminum, and replaced the main rear leafspring with the correct 1963 9 Leaf spring, painted light gray with the platic spacers etc. Also doing work on the suspension cleaning it up and making sure its the correct paint or not painted...

PATIENCE Barry....PATIENCE...best advice I can give you....keep photos comming....

Collin

 

[BarryK]

it's always something isn't it Collin?

first the motor, and now your back to doing other stuff - radiator, suspension parts, etc!

does it ever end on these cars?


keep us informed on how things are going

Barry