blank trim tag C2

[60fuelie]

Did anyone see the blank trim tag for a C2 on E-bay. It expired this morning with a sale price of $1240.77. I hope the buyer has an honest reason to purchase this tag and is not planning to "create" a rare car. Hopefully the buyer is replacing a damaged or missing tag. I was just surprised to see it bring such a high price.

Greg
1960fivette

 

[ChuckG]

One of the worst kept secrets in the hobby is that you or I could buy a repro trim tag through several advertisers right in Hemmings Motor News. I don't know the price, but the service is available, and has been available for a number of years.

BUT....there are certain fonts, spacing, etc. that must be followed, and you need an old address-o-graph machine to "emboss" the characters, etc. Repro trim tags are spotted pretty easily. Al Grennig, the stamp pad expert, is now working on a book of trim tags. I understand it will be published fairly soon. Chuck

 

[JohnZ]

I attended Al's Tech Session at Hershey when he previewed the research he's done on the trim tag project, with lots of macro photos of each character (both the pre-stamped ones and the characters St. Louis applied). With his info, a trim tag can now be verified (or called as a repro) in about five seconds just by looking at one character with a 3x magnifier.

 

[Vettehead Mikey]

I attended Al's Tech Session at Hershey when he previewed the research he's done on the trim tag project, with lots of macro photos of each character (both the pre-stamped ones and the characters St. Louis applied). With his info, a trim tag can now be verified (or called as a repro) in about five seconds just by looking at one character with a 3x magnifier.

Did Al display his go/no go gauge for the trim tag also? I thought that was pretty slick and a good piece of detective work on his part too.

 

[JohnZ]

Yes, he did - neat piece of work! I have Al lined up as a Tech Session presenter for the 2004 National as well; his stuff always draws more attendees than the room will hold

 

[nick67vette]

The genuine blank trim tag issue is interesting. If two have recently surfaced there are likely more somewhere.

Genuine trim tags share specific common elements before factory processing. They became unique in many ways when they were coded and applied.

A "genuine tag" may pass some initial inspection criteria, but fail to affirm authenticity.

 

[IH2LOSE]

Not to side track a a topic But nick 67 are you the same guy I ran into at carlilse in the auto parts store on hamburg turnpike?

 

[midyear]

On the other hand..........

For several years as a teen, I worked in a paint store and mixed paint for many a "painter". Often when there memory failed them or they could not remember a color code, they would bring in the trim tag, freshly removed from the car they were painting, and plop it on the counter to get the correct color mixed. Do you think they put it back??? I doubt it, how do you fix that problem "correctly" now??? how do you properly replace a cars tags after it has been stolen and recovered??? To quote the great Al Grenning as I heard him talking to a person who had just got their documented 67 red 400hp frame off roadster back from being stolen last year at the NCRS meet in Canada, now missing orig tags "you now own a parts car".

All this will be null and void if the mystery corvette documents are ever found, no one will car about a restamp or a repop trim tag as long as it matches the GM paperwork. I have watched it for 10 years on the GTO market. now a judge clone made from a Lemans brings real GTO money. the cars will sell for what the market will bear.

Feel free to take this any way you like, but its a shame we place so much on one persons opinion. After listening to an authority belittle corvette owners one after another and kiss up to the big wheels, I lost my respect for the man, I am Sorry to feel that way but I saw actions out weigh character

 

[midyear]

Ok, on this particular car it was a red 400hp matching numbers car. from the pics the resto was first rate, I believe top flite material, even had nos off road pipes on it. he had tank sticker, and other paperwork back to day one. the car was recovered missing only the tags. The thief had sold the car and the new owner was attempting to hide the stolen vin and removed the tags replacing them with another set of unknown numbers in order to register and drive this car. The orig tags were thrown away by one of the 2 parties. The owner knew the correct vin of course and wanted it replaced. AG new all the above info and still made the comment.

AG has never been anything but nice to me....but, anytime we have spoke he has approaced me and not the other way around. This experiance was 2002 carlisle, and watching people oogle over him may have had an impact on his mannerism, but still no excuse for being rude to the enthusiast, the real back bone of the hobby. I watched the mans face drop to the ground after al told him that, and I have wondered what became of the car. Once again the enjoyment of a hobby is being outwieghed by a current focus on a trivial part like a paint tag. IMO NCRS is placing too much emphasis on things such as this, and it too shall pass, just like restamped blocks and base clear paint......

 

[midyear]

As for the VIN, to the best of my knowledge (former police Det. Sgt. in Charge of GTA), it cannot. (Yes, the tag can be made illegally, but that's not the entire process necessary for restoration.)

Again I find it funny on how much trouble it seams to be to have a car that has been stolen and recovered. It is not the fault of the car nor the owner, but they seem to be the bastard of all cars. We see a state issued vin and everyone runs away screaming, but someone finds a rare vin and trim tag still attached to a rusted burned 67 L88 carcass with no other usable parts, and it becomes a numbers matching top flite car!!!! and we all stand back and marvell at it..................

 

[John Mcgraw]

Dennis,
You are a man after my own heart! The inordinate ammount of value placed on such small items like the trim tag and engine stamp, have allways amazed me. The quality of the overall restoration should be the most important thing in flight judging.
It would appear that we have transposed some of the values from Bowtie judging over to Flight judging. I also believe that once AG's criteria becoms well known, then the quality of the repro tags and stampings will improve as well! If you can quantify the differences between the original and the repro, then you can correct those issues. This is what the restoration game is, and has allways been about, trying to make a car appear as if it was just delivered. There are those who have unlimited resources who will buy a NOS part when a good restored or repro part is indistinguishable from the original, but there are only so many NOS parts out there and only a very few of us have the wherewithall to spend this kind of money on our cars. I am sure glad that I do only C1 cars where we do not have to worry about the pesky trim tags! I can paint a C1 any color I want and put any color interior in it I wiah and take absolutely no point deduct on either as long as I do the job properly. This, I believe is the way it should be.
Regards, John McGraw

 

[midyear]

John,

I know its common for a C1 vin tag to come up missing, as they tend to fall off the steering column with some regularity, and earlier cars are held on by screws. I cant count how many times I have seen or heard of a C1 missing the vin tag, but it seems to be fine if paperwork and frame #'s support it to put a repop vin tag back on it. funny as cars age and demand increases how some things tend to fade away. Ask a 30's packard owner if his car is orig color, or for that matter, ask him if it even has its orig body. many 4 door sedans have been rebodied as convert's to increase the value, and who cares??? seems no one.... if the job is done correctly.

 

[Sting Ray]

Dennis's (?)( did I do that correct?) theory is alot like mine when you see a car advertised as a Flight or Bloomington car and they think it is worth alot more, unlike John, alot of the cars are not sold right after the show, so is the car really still that good, how many correct parts were borrowed, or sold off after the car was judged.


Tom

 

[65TripleBlack]

Midyear- I'm With You On This One

I believe that Grenning was out of line with his "parts car" comment. I have met him on numerous occasions, and find him to be an arrogant, self aggrandizing character. Not only was that comment insensitive, but it was also inaccurate. For example, if you take 2 FRESHLY and equally correctly restored 1965 SB Corvettes, nicely optioned, the Top Flite winner will retail for around $51,000, while the non documented, non Top Flite car will retail for about $45,000. Look it up. It is on the Hemmings website.

There is a huge difference in philosophy in this hobby. We are, after all, not talking about rare Bugattis or Deusenbergs. We are talking about common American made cars, whose value is in the 20-50K range. This does not apply to rare '67 L88's, or the super rare, one off '69 (I think ZL1), or other historically significant cars.

Unless you have an extremely rare car, then get your Top Flite, if that"floats your boat",and then drive it, and enjoy it. Most Corvettes are no longer investments! I, for one, don't need anyone to verify for me, what I already know. And since I plan on enjoying my faithfully and meticulously restored car for many years to come (God willing), then I don't care about its resale value.

Joe

 

[1KULC7]

My God, the dollar is at the bottom of EVERYTHING. First of all, the trim tags and VIN tags to me are like the Holy Grail and should not be messed with. Second, I guess Corvettes are big business and they will be messed with, because of the dollar value.

My question, does NCRS foster this by making matching number cars stand out among everything? Who do we really look at making matched number so valuable?

I admit when I was looking for my 63 Coupe, I too was concerned about the numbers matching, but after learning and rebuilding and driving it, I just don't care, because I like the car and to me its priceless....just my thoughts...

 

[Ron Miller]

I've got two cars, a matching numbers 65 air coupe and a 66 vert powerglide with a replacement block and replacement front cap. The matching numbers car sits in the garage most of the time, because it's a matching numbers car. The vert is my driver, a lot more fun to drive, and don't worry about it getting hit. If it does, fix it. Before I restored the matching numbers car and bought the 66 convertible, I drove the 65 quite a lot also. Not any more.

For a a daily driver & fun car, give me the 66.

My thoughts on the matter, if you've got a good non-matching numbers car, enjoy it!! I sure do, I love those old vettes!

rlm :cool