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Bushing Debate

  • Thread starter Thread starter 78SilvAnniv
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78SilvAnniv

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Polyurethane vs Prothane.

Christmas has come early to the Young house, and I am flipping through my vette catalogs. I want an entire bushing kit for the 78.

What is the difference between the two products listed above?
Kenny advised me to find and order the prothane, but suggested I ask here at CACC when I queried him about the differences.
(He's playing with his early x-mas present, an Ibanez custom, and it sounds nice:))

I will be ordering tomorrow afternoon, most likely the Prothane, unless someone can give me a good argument against it.
Heidi

ps
will also do a search here, but am afraid I will have to wade through lots of threads/posts before I find a comment that defines the differences between the two products.
 
site search

I performed a search and found a post by Guldstrand that stated prothane is basically a polyurethane bushing and that when installed correctly, with plenty of the correct grease, they can/will be squeak-free.

Through the other threads I read, the difference between the poly and rubber is that the rubber has a tendency to roll-over when cornering while poly does not.

Skilled installation appears to be desired.
Looks like I will go poly.
Heidi
 
Hiedi,
I installed a complete bushing kit from www.p-s-t.com
This is the second time I've bought from them and have been very satisfied each time. They are called polygraphite.... They are graphite impregnated to stop sqeaks . I love the way the car feels . They are a urethane. Also they were very helpfull in making sure you get the right parts.
 
Thanks Dave,

I'll give them a call tomorrow.
Heidi
 
78SilvAnniv said:
Polyurethane vs Prothane.What is the difference between the two products listed above? Kenny (He's playing with his early x-mas present, an Ibanez custom, and it sounds nice:))
Heidi:
Energy Suspension, Prothane, P-S-T, Polygraphite, Dee Engineering ... they're ALL polyurethane. P-S-T/Polygraphite have graphite impregnated into the urethane polymer. Have read many accounts that graphite's inherent lubricating property is rendered ineffective when molded into poly. Also, the graphite interferes with bonding where poly may be bonded to metal. Any poly front control arm bushing that is assembled with recommended silicone assembly lube is not likely to squeak or squawk. I have lubed ES poly ... no probs.

BTW ... have owned Ibanez 6 strings for 28 years ... from banned copyright-infringing Flying Vee to present Artist series ... all excellent pieces. Vintage Gibson too. And ... AHHH ... the warmth of Tube Power ... of course!
JACK:gap
 
I ordered my set from Energy suspension

I don't know what all these squeaking problems are all about.

I guess proper lubrication will eliminate all these squeaking problems.

I think you'll enjoy the car heidi. My car does not feel so unstable around the twisties above normal speeds anymore.
 
Just curious... Where did you read the accounts about the graphite being rendered ineffective? I can see where it would be a problem where bonding to metal is needed. These and others are not bonded to any metal. I agree lubing is necessary with them all.
 
What grease would y'all recommend to use. Because I own one or more boats, I have plenty of marine grease on hand. Would that do the trick? And how much should I slather on there...?
 
maxrevs85 said:
Just curious... Where did you read the accounts about the graphite being rendered ineffective? I can see where it would be a problem where bonding to metal is needed. These and others are not bonded to any metal. I agree lubing is necessary with them all.

Read accounts on forums ... maybe this one ... maybe others ... don't recall. Also, worked as QE in auto rubber molding ind (kinda like one step up from stayin' at the holiday inn:L ). Bonding ain't an issue with front CA bushings on C3 (that's what makes 'em easy to install without need for a press) .... can be an issue on motor mounts etc. Also, energy suspension's BLACK polyurethane compound DOES have graphite ... colored ES does not (red, yellow etc). If it's poly ... lube it with silicone grease ... regardless whether graphite-impregnated or not ... upon assembly, coat all the parts' bearing surfaces until excess squeezes out. Correct silicone grease is colorless, translucent, slightly milky ... comes with energy suspension parts ... or buy it separately from ES.
JACK:gap
 
shopping

I have searched catalogs, CAC and the internet for my purchases.

I believe I will go with VB&P's product, they appeared most helpful and appreciative of my call and questions. I did not have a catalog for their products, and I had only searched their site and found a poly conversion kit with a part #. The sales technician I spoke with was very helpful.

I am also ordering a few things for my driver door (spring & bushing kit) and a t-top refresher kit. My plastic sleeves at the rear pins have cracked in half and the tops are 'sprung' out and I'd like to seat them in better. May cure my water leaks in this area, too.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and helpful advice. CAC members come through again!
Heidi
 
I went out to the garage and checked my box of bushings. They're Prothane units from Corvette America. According to the instructions, the bushings are pre-lubed. But there's also a small tube of silicone grease included in the box in case they have to be disassembled. Nice touch.
 
The big question...

Can Kenny and I do these bushings in our (unheated) garage at home or should we take the 78 and the bushings to our local Vette guy to install for us. (he is very reasonable, price-wise)
What is the average length of installation for suspension bushings?
Heidi
 
Re: The big question...

78SilvAnniv said:
Can Kenny and I do these bushings in our (unheated) garage at home or should we take the 78 and the bushings to our local Vette guy to install for us. (he is very reasonable, price-wise)
What is the average length of installation for suspension bushings?
Heidi

It is a pretty tough job from the perspective the car has to be jacked up high enough to swing all the parts out, you need some specialized tools, and it will require an alignment right after it is done.

On a scale of 1-10, 1 being a simple oil filter change, and 10 being a complete overhaul, I would rank this job a 6.
 
Heidi,

The front end can be expensive depending on the extent of what you replace. Mine cost me around $750 or so for labor only but I replaced the shocks, tie rod ends, power steering valve, etc, basically everything in the extended rebuild kit.

Overall I was happy, though I wish I had the money to do something about that recirculating ball steering.

Bob
 
It's also a question of time. I gather that your '78 is a daily driver. Often, these things can be much more frustrating when you need the car for Monday morning. In my case, I could put the car up on stands for the month of January because this is just my "fun" car.

This project is very high on my list, too. I'm getting tired of unpredictable handling! Around here, I'm figuring $450-500 shop labor to do the job. That money would go a long way towards other projects on the car...
 
Hiedi ,
I did my suspension overhaul over a period of time I had it up for the winter. I removed the entire suspension including the differential, ( I had it out on a bench). So it can be time consuming. I would recommend doing all ,front and rear, at the same time. The level of experience and tools you guys have will be the deciding factor on length time it takes to accomplish. If you could disassemble all the components and take then to the shop it would be the easiest way. I did all my bushing and had the ball joints , lower , pressed in and out. Maybe this would be a good opportunity to put the car up and tackle some needed repairs . Just a thought. :)
 
Well...

I can't really have her down for any length of time since she is my only transportation. I greatly dislike (hate) driving Kenny's suv.

We have a lot of tools. What type of specialty tools are we talking here? I like the idea of perhaps taking things apart and then having a shop press everything into place. This sounds like something we could do. How high would she need to be lifted? We have floor jacks and stands, is that high enough, or will we need more room?
Heidi
 
"polyurethane" is the generic term for the bushing material.

"Prothane" is the name of one company that sells bushings and other suspension and chassis products made of polyurethane.

Changing from rubber to polyurethane bushings, stabilizer bar mounts, stab. bar links and other parts can be a double-edged sword.

In the late 1970s, polyurethane suspension bushings were developed for racing applications because "poly" or "urethane" bushings have significantly less compliance than do bushings of rubber. In a racing situation, you don't want the suspension to be compliant.

There are some drawbacks to polyurethane. First, any urethane suspension part will transmit more noise, harshness and vibration (NVH) then the equivalent rubber product. In some cases, the extra NVH is not an issue but, in others, it might be. C3s are already a poor platform isolation-wise. If you're not racing your C3 and you want it to be at least as quiet in side as it was stock, don't use polyurethane suspension parts.

Secondly, the nature of polyurethane is that when it's used in a manner that has it moving against metal parts, such as bushings or stabilizer bar mounts, it squeaks. Yeah, some manufacturers give you this fancy grease to use during the installation but, what they don't tell you is you periodically have to disassemble the suspension and regrease the parts to keep the bushings or stab. bar mounts from squeaking. Some manufacturers of polyurethane bushings and mounts make a graphite-impregnated type of urethane which is somewhat sucessful in addressing the squeak issue. Just the fact that the poly bushing industry developed graphite-impregnating process is proof it knows there's a noise problem with urethane bushings. Generally, I've found graphite-impregnated bushings to be a solution, but only in part. My experience has been that even the graphite/poly bushings will squeak in cold/wet weather.

Some polyurethane bushings makers claim a durability advantage with their products. In theory, the ultimate durability of polyurethane parts may exceed that of rubber pieces and that durability advantage might have some practical applications in some situations--such as the upper control arm bushings on big-block cars but, generally, I feel the life of rubber bushings manufactured from OE or better materials is acceptable on cars that see normal duty cycles and the added durability (and cost) of polyurethane parts might not be of practical value.

IMO, the only times polyurethane bushings ought to be considered is when NVH is not an issue, squeaking is not an issue and the user desires a lower level of compliance in the suspension of a car that is either race-only, a street/track car or a high-performance streeter that gets driven very hard.

If the car is street-driven in a normal manner, on a regular basis by a driver who wants reasonable NVH and no problems with squeaking, OE-type rubber bushings are the best choice.

When considering control arm bushings from which low-compliance along with no squeaking is desired, the Global West "Del-A-Lum" (Delrin plastic/aluminum composite construction) bushing is a better choice than polyurethane pieces. The GW Del-A-Lums are even less compliant than both rubber and urethane parts. In fact, for practical purposes, the compliance of a Del-A-Lum bushing is about the same as a solid metallic bushing or a sperical bearing. Since it is a true suspension "bearing" rather than a bushing and can be lubricated, unless it has failed, a Del-A-Lum will never make any noise. Want more info on Del-A-Lums? See: http://www.globalwest.net

On my 71 BB Coupe and other cars with modified suspensions, I use some polyurethane in stabilizer bar mounts, stab. bar links, shock absorber mounts, transmission mounts, the front mounts for the C3 rear axle, and the C3 trailing arm bushings. Elsewhere I use the Del-A-Lums in the front control arms and spherical bearings in the C3 rear suspension lateral links (strut rods).
 
Where were you yesterday!

Gads Hib! It looks like I should have gone with rubber!

I like the ride in my 78 now. I have a bad hip, and I think a rougher ride would reduce my driving enjoyment.

Opinions on how much rougher poly will be compared with stock rubber?
Opinions on squeaks at a later date?

I can always send it back and get rubber, but I need to decide before they arrive and I mangle the box to oogle.
I really just want to install and go. Forever. (20 years would be nice)
Heidi
 

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