C1 hybrid car questions

[IH2LOSE]

Now I know not all of us are interested in these types of projects .But I do know that a few of our members here (and a fellow whos lurking) are building a hybrid car.I would email John Magraw off line to ask some questions but I feel with others working on (or in the near future) simular projects its a shame that the information is not shared with others.After all this forum is really about sharing information. I am hoping to just post my future questions here and keep this post alive during the construction of the project.

Now On to my Question.

I Just recived my front suspention for my project.(its out of a 88 to 96 C4 vette) WOW this stuff is light weight I almost feel guilty not putting a aluminum block motor in this project.Anyways I need to learn how to polish the aluminum suspention components as John Magraw did

Now I am all for investing in tools to do this project but I just dont know if I need a bench buffer or I should purchase a hand buffer .It looks like the majority of the parts could be done with the bench buffer ( I dont think I would ever use again after the project,but thats the same thing I said about my blasting cabinet that use use always) or if I should get a hand buffer because I wont be able to doe the dana 44 rear with the bench buffer.

Eastwood seems to have all kinds of polising equiptment and supplies so it seems thats were I would purchase from.

Then lastly onces its all polished do I put a coating of clear on it or just go back and rebuff it all the time?

 

[wapaugh]

Larry,

I'm still lurking. Good post and I think you're right on track about sharing ideas and experiences.

I hate to use the word "hybrid", however. It brings to mind some new-fangled, energy saving (hah!) gasoline-electric-fuel cell-flywheel-nuclear powered commuter special designed to ultimately put me out of business. I like "improved" or "modified" or even "hot rod". For John's 59 and Rich's 62, I don't have words to describe them other than "inspirational".

I'm also thinking you should go ahead and get the bench buffer. Since you won't be using it after your project is completed, I'm sure you won't mind if I borrow it (insert smiley face here).

By the way, I have decided to go to Carlisle after all. Send me a PM with contact info and let's try to hook up.

Wes

 

[IH2LOSE]

Wes You may be correct with the term hybrid But I just dont know what to call the project. Every project has to have a name right? If you think of a better one let me know

As for a carlilse meet up.I get into town on tuesday morning .and take the kids to hershey park. Thurday evening/night I am meeting with Ikerds to get my dana 44 and my rear suspention and SR111 motor sport to pick up my frame. As it gets closer to carlilse there will be post's all over the place on a meeting spot for forum members to meet up. I will be having breakfast with a fellow on friday who has done a couple of these projects allready earley 5am to 6 am you might want to hook up with us if you can to share project ideas.

See You there

 

[John Mcgraw]

Larry,

I think that a stationary buffer is an absolute necessity if you want to finish this job in the current year! I started out a couple of years ago with a Harbor freight cheap buffer, but burned it up after about 8 months of buffing stainless pretty regular. For aluminum, you want a buffer that turns at 1750 rpm as opposed to the 3500 rpm buffer that is used for hard metals like stainless. I was going to buy an commercial quality Baldor buffer, but the Scotch in me just couldn't spend 400+ for a buffer when I had all the parts necssary to build one. I wanted a buffer with a lot of reach to get into the middle of large pieces like A arms and the old one just didn't have enough reach. My new home-built unit has a 48" wide shaft on it and the reach on each side is in excess of 12". My home-made buffer is also belt drive so that I can change speeds by just changing the belt position on the stepped pulley.

You will also need tools to rough out all the parting lines and get the surfaces level and ready for final sanding an buffing. I use a number of tools for this. Probably the biggest workhorse is my belt sander attachment for my bench grinder. It is equiped with belts ranging from 36 grit for smoothing down the parting lines to 1200 grit for fine sanding before buffing. When I say a belt grinder, I am talking about a grinder where you grind on a rubber contact wheel which the belt passes over. A belt grinder like Sears has will not do the job since they are only intended to grind on the platten, and will not grind curved surfaces smoothly. I wanted a commercial grade belt grinder like a Bader, Wilton, or similar grinder, but setled for the MultiTool attachment for my bench grinder. It is a great tool made in Austrialia, and is money well spent for the huge ammount of time it will save over hand grinding. I also use both straight and angle die grinders equiped with a number of grinding an polishing mandrels. You will need a 1" and 2" sanding disk backup pad with a selection of discs ranging from 50 grit to 180 grit. You will need a couple of mandrels for sanding drums. I would suggest a 1" and a 5/8" will be a good starting point, with several grits of sanding sleeves for each. Some mandrel mounted sanding rolls in both straight and tapered with grits starting at about 80 and ending at 320 will be necessity for gtting into tight places. I am a big fan of mandrel mounted flap wheels, and I have several grits from 80 to 320 grits. The interleaved ones which have non-woven abrasive flaps beween the sandpaper flaps give a very smooth finish.

Then you will need buffing wheels. For fast cut, buy ventilated buffing wheels, as they will give a faster action than spiral sewn wheels which should be used for the final buff. I use emery compound on the ventilated buffs and a nice, greasy Tripoli compound for the final polish. You will also need some small buffs for your die grinder to get into tight areas, as well as some pointed felt bobs to get into the really tight areas.

One of the nice things about the C4 suspension is that it is all Forged components that are all made from 6061 T6 material, and will shine like a mirror when buffed properly. The center section and the rear cover are cast, and will not look as good as the forged pieces, but they will look ok. You will want a good pair of gloves since the parts get real hot when you are buffing on them, and you will need a good face shield as well as a respriator to keep from breathing this crap! It won't take you long to figure that you will want a piece of soft rubber matting under the buffing wheels since you will have some parts yanked from your hands and flung to the ground before learning how far past center you can go before having it yank it out of your hands. I seldom lose a part to the ground now days, but I have developed a death-grip on my parts that will stall my 1.5 hp motor out before I lose my grip. You will want to wrap your shaft and the nuts that hold the buffing wheels on with duct tape to avoid leaving marks on the finished parts when it yanks the part against the shaft. Nothing will **** you off more than having a part complete and then having the wheel pull the part against the nut and leave nut tracks down the part!
It is a filthy, nasty job that will have you scrubbing compound off your neck before you go to bed each night, but the finished product is worth it!
Regards, John McGraw

 

[IH2LOSE]

John Again thenk you for the informative post

I had not planned on doing all of the smoothing you had done.But I guess I will revisit that aspect of it.So its settled on the bench buffer on a stand.How will I do the rear center section ?

I am going to look in the grainger catalog today to see what they have.I found this in the east wood catalog.would this fit the bill for me?

http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=5168&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=433&iSubCat=436&iProductID=5168

How much rouge should I get ? How maney extra wheels should I order? You know what I have ahead of me.

I had put a post up in the C4 section on replacement bushing and ball joints

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52971

Do you have any advice for me on that.

Then lastley (for for the moment that is) I want to get a nice set of rotors and calipers (I am not trying to increase the braking power I would think I have more then enough) But I want a set of rotors and calipers that look cool
and that wont rust or discolor. What did you use .I could always just paint the calipers red with high heat paint and just get a nice set of drilled rotors.

 

[John Mcgraw]

I think that a buffer of 3/4 hp or larger is an acceptable buffer. I would buy only a Baldor buffer as it will give you long life and quality construction. I would think that Graingers would be high on the price and I am sure that a little internet shopping will yeild a much better price. You are going to need at least 2 wheels wide on each setup, and you can never use more than one compound on any wheel, so I would start out with 4 each of the sewn spiral and the ventialted buff. Buy a 3 lb bar of both Emery and Tripoli, and you will probably go through both before you are finished, but everybody carries it in stock, so delivery is fast. Caswell has real good prices on supplies as does Bright Works.

Surprisingly, a very large percentage of the center section can be ground and polished on the stationary machines, but there is still a LOT of detail work that can only be done by hand with a die grinder! You will get real tired of holding the casting up while buffing it against the wheel, but if you pace yourself and set it down and work on another part for a while, it will not be too bad. It goes without saying that if you buff your center section, you should pull all the guts out of it first to get the weight down. I never trust old bearings and seals anyway, so pulling it apart was not a big deal for me. The last thing I want to do is get the car running and find tha the oinion seal is leaking.

You only have one option on bushings for a C4 suspension and that is urethane! GM did not intend for the rubber bushings to ever be replaced, but just intended for you to buy new suspension arms when the bushings went bad. I am not sure how the factory ever got those things in there, but I can assure you that you could not replace them even if they were available. The urethane bushings are 2 piece split bushings that are installed from both sides. About the only way to get the originals out is to cut the flange off one side and then press the remainder out. You have two options on the bushings, either leave them in and polish around them if they are in good condition or remove and repalce with urethane. The replacement bushings also had a center sleeve that was slightly softer than the factory bushing which allowed me to drill them out very slightly and use fractional size bolts rather than the metric bolts. Be sure that you do not discard the center of the bushing on the rear arm that adjusts the camber, as you will need to re-use it in the new bushings. I figured this out too late and spent 2 hours fabricating some new ones on a lathe! I am just hoping tha the urethane ones will not squeek to much, but I bought the graphite impregnated ones, so it probably won't be an issue. The ball joints are available at your FLAPS, and are easy to install. You will have to press the lowers in and out, but the uppers just bolt in place to replace the original rivets which drill and punch out.

Baer brakes makes some really nice 2 piece brake rotors that have a black anodized center section which is bolted to a drilled and plated disc. They are called Eradispeed 2 piece rotors, and they look real nice through the wheels. Thr PBR calipers that the General used on C4 cars are really nice calipers and you can just glassbead the calipers and paint with uethane paint to match you body and they will look real nice. dont waste you time with the caliper paint you see in Eastwood's and other catalogs, since you can get a better job by spraying them with your paint. Their little brush-applied system makes for a real crappy looking finished product. The calipers do no really get that hot, and standard urethane paint should last quite well.
Regards, John McGraw

 

[IH2LOSE]

Well I ordered my baldor buffer today I ended up with the 1 1/2 hp one because they did not have a 3/4 hp 2 speed unit.
I should have it on friday.

Thanks for the information on polishing.

I have to get my ball joints and bushings this week.


I also found the web site for the rotors and will order them when we get home from carlilse or see if I can find a set there. I have an entire shopping list for carlilse allready.

What do you think even with the big block I would still run a regular radiator in it? I know tom dewitt will be there Maybee I should take advantage of one of his show specials and be done with that also

 

[John Mcgraw]

Larry,

I think that you will be a lot happier with the 1.5 hp buffer. Buffers are like engines in Corvettes, there is no substitute for horsepower! I was going to tell you to go for it, but did not want to push you into buying more tool than you wanted to buy. You can spin 10 and 12" buffing wheels on this buffer and never bog the motor down.

Regards, John McGraw

 

[IH2LOSE]

Well the smoothing of the lines will be done. i rough cut it with a file then went back with my dremmel to remove my file marks.I will not go any further with smoothing till I see how much the polishing removes in scratches.Tomorow shopping list is more of the drum sanders for the remmil.A new face sheild for the buffer and a nice smock and resperator.Wow I really should have started this work last year.What a dope not ordering all of these parts then

 

[John Mcgraw]

Larry,
Generally speaking, the buffer will not remove scratches bigger than 320 grit. You can buff out 240 grit scratches, but it will take a lot longer! If you plan on making your final sanding step to be 320, you will not go wrong. On stainless steel, you will need to go all the way to 600-800 grit for the final sanding.
Regards, John McGraw

 

[Mac]

Suddenly, I feel the urge to go polish something... anything...

John, is the slower speed for the aluminum because it's so much softer?

-Mac

 

[John Mcgraw]

Hi Mac,

That is correct. With the higher speed you can actually get the aluminum so hot where the wheel contacts the aluminum that it will melt the surface of the aluminum slightly and scar the finished product. Of course, the speed of the buffer is also a factor of the buff diameter, and you can quite safely spin a 6" buff on aluminum at 3500 RPM but to do so with a 12" buff would cause problems. The little die grinders spin at 20,000 rpm, but the wheels are so small and the heat generated is so little that they do not present a problem.
Aluminum is such an easy material to buff that it spoils me. I fabriacted some stainless steel hood latches yesterday, and have spent a solid hour sanding and buffing on these two parts and am still not done!
Regards, John McGraw

 

[IH2LOSE]

Hi Mac,

That is correct. With the higher speed you can actually get the aluminum so hot where the wheel contacts the aluminum that it will melt the surface of the aluminum slightly and scar the finished product. Of course, the speed of the buffer is also a factor of the buff diameter, and you can quite safely spin a 6" buff on aluminum at 3500 RPM but to do so with a 12" buff would cause problems. The little die grinders spin at 20,000 rpm, but the wheels are so small and the heat generated is so little that they do not present a problem.
Aluminum is such an easy material to buff that it spoils me. I fabriacted some stainless steel hood latches yesterday, and have spent a solid hour sanding and buffing on these two parts and am still not done!
Regards, John McGraw

Well I may have made a big mistake listening to John Mcgraw.This smoothing and polishing very easly can turn into

Obsessive compulsive behavior

I went into the basement today for what I thought was 15 minutes and it was like I went into a time warp I came up 2.5 hours later.No kidding I totally got consumed with it and lost total track of time.(that meant I was having fun right?)The material the a arms are made of is real cool the shine just wants to come out of it

John thanks again I never planned on smoothing or polishing the peices But they look so good on your car How could anyone install them any other way then smoothed and polished

Larry

 

[IH2LOSE]

John I have my buffer ,My ball joints and my new prolane bushings.Should I be installing my new ball joints and bushings prior to polishing ? or just pop the old ones out ?

 

[John Mcgraw]

Larry,

I would remove the bushings and ball joints, polish the arms, and then only re-install the new ones after your clearcoat was cured.

Regards, John McGraw

 

[IH2LOSE]

John I may need to speak to you on the phone on the buffing. this is really a dirt nasty job but you said that to me before I went in to it.

I am going to the painter tomorow to see if he has some fine wet paper I can use to clean up the fine scratches.

When do you know your finished with the course (yellow wheels and emory) ? and then move to the next

When am I supposed to re apply the stick to the buffer wheels?

When am I supposed to dress the wheel with the wheel dresser?

What material should I use first? emory-white-then tripoli last?

 

[John Mcgraw]

Larry,

It is without a doubt the nastiest job that I regularly perform. I usually save my buffing work for the cool weather months, and work under a face shield with a respriator. I always work outside on the drive so that I do not trash my garage with buffing compound and lint from the wheels.

You would be well advised to do all your sanding with power tools whether they be air die grinders with abrasive rolls or a large drum or belt sander. There is nothing like hand sanding to make you give up on the project! You can buy a 1/4" air die grinder at the discount tool places like Harbor freight for less than $20 each and I have several of both straight and angle grinders on my bench with different abrasives mounted on them to avoid constant changing of abrasives. At the very least you shold have one of each to spin either the sanding disks or sanding sleeves and cartridge rolls. Flap wheels both on the die grinders and on the buffer will prove to be invaluable in giving a smooth final finish that is ready for buffing. If the parts are smooth sanded with 320 grit, you should be able to buff to a high shine with only tripoli compound. There will be very few instances where you will use Emery compound if you are sanding good. You only add more compound when the wheel does not seem to be transfering compound to the part as much. This is one of those things you get a feel for pretty quick. If you are adding more compound ever minute or so, then you are probably using too much. Use only as much as is necessary to bring an area to a high shine. As with the Emery, you will probsbly find almost no places where you will feel compelled to use the white rouge. I only use it where a part is in very plain view on top of the engine compartment where everyone can scrutinize it. you will get a feel for when to rake the wheel with the wheel rake, but basically you will do it when enough metal gets built up in the wheel to risk putting scratches in the finished part from the metal. You will see the aluminum building up on the buff and will soon get a feel of when to rake it. Anything more than once an hour on this hard 6061 T6 material is probably not necessary.

I would reccomend that you start on a fairly simple part like a rear strut rod or dogbone where you do not have a bunch of little tiny niches to get in to and master your sanding and buffing skills on these parts first. This will give you the confidence to tackle the more complex parts as you gain skills. Remember that buffing a part will only magnify any defects in the part, and if you do not smooth the part well, then you will be dissapointed in the final product. The sanding is probably about 75 % of the time spent while the buffing should only take about 25% of the time. On really complex and rough parts like the rear center section, the sanding component will probably equal in excess of 90% of the total time spent.Drop me an Email, and I will send you my home and cell number. If you are planning on being down here in Texas any time soon, I would be glad to spend a couple of hours in the shop with you, teaching you some of the tricks of the trade that I have learned.
Regards, John McGraw

 

[IH2LOSE]

Thanks Again John!

 

[IH2LOSE]

So here are some pictures of the upper a arm that I sanded then polished

Allthough not complete this is what they will look like

here are the tools that got me here

One is my baldor buffer that I order by myself and the other is a jet grinder with a multi tool sander on it Rich L did alot of investagation on who to purchase it from and I just ordered what he ordered THANKS AGAIN John And Rich .Both tools were recomendations from John Magraw.

 

[John Mcgraw]

Hey Larry,

Looking good! It looks like you on the downhill side of the learning curve for the buffing! Isn't the MultiTool a great little peice of equipment?

Regards, John McGraw