calling on help from Paint experts

[BarryK]

Hi all

ok, here is the deal. My '65 coupe has been in the shop for over 7 months now getting the body perfect for new paint. It had lacquer on her but we decided to go with BC/CC for the new paint job as it's just a very nice driver - I don't go through NCRS judging. My painter explained to me that the BC/CC would be a bit more durable plus any future chips or scratches would be easier to fix and blend in with BC/CC rather than lacquer. Not to mention that he said a lacquer paint job is more expensive. He normally only recommends going with lacquer if it's a true trailer queen show car.

He uses PPG paints and the car bodywork is all completed and sealed, primed, sanded, and ready to be sprayed with color.
We have been on hold for the last 2 1/2 weeks though because the paint supplier has had problems getting the basecoat color mixed to the proper accurate color. We are staying with the stock Milano Maroon color. We already recieved from the paint supplier 5 or 6 sample pints of basecoat but the tint is all wrong - either it was too brown, or too red, to too much metallic, etc. BTW, the paint supplier does have an original paint color chip he has been working from plus they do utilize AutocolorLibrary (AutoColorLibrary.com) to help get older paint mixes correct.

We DO have a sample pint of Milano Maroon in lacquer they mixed up (before we decided to go with the complete paint job, we had this lacquer mixed based on the initial plan of just touching up a few areas that needed it). This lacquer is actually a pretty good match for the original color.
Talking to my painter again late last week and yesterday, he is thinking that if they still can't get the basecoat paint mixed properly that he will have them mix up more of the lacquer and than just spray the car with lacquer instead of the basecoat paint but than also clearcoat over the lacquer.

I'd like to hear opinions from the paint guys here on what you think of going with lacquer and clear instead of basecoat/clearcoat.
At least this way the color would be correct and the clearcoat on top of the lacquer would help protect it and make it a bit more durable I figure.
On the other hand, one major reason we went with the BC/CC in our plans was to make it easier to match up and blend in any possible future chips and scratches that occur in the future (remember, this is a DRIVER car - I like to try and get it out on the road and ENJOY her as much as possible when the weather is nice so chips WILL happen).
1. How good should it look using lacquer/clear instead of BC/CC?
2. Any known issues using clear over lacquer?
3. is it really that much more difficult to repair and blend in the color on
future repairs using the lacquer rather than BC?

After 7 months of prepping the body, I hate to make a wrong decision now. If using the lacquer will work well we can get started on the color very soon. If we need to keep trying trial and error on mixing up the basecoat paints this could drag on a number of weeks more. I'm itching to get the car completed already, but NOT at the expense of doing it in an incorrect way.

My painter has 30+ years experience in specializing in older vettes so when he tells me that using lacquer under clear will work I believe him, but I'm still interested to know other peoples opinions.

thanks for any help and/or opinions on this

Barry

 

[paul67]

Barry,

I can't answer your question but thought you might enjoy a peek at progress on my 1967. I took it in on March 8 and things are going well.

No major surprises, thank goodness. The car took a hit at some point on the driver's front fender but it was minor. The original repair was well done but some Bondo was used. That explains why I had some minor cracking at the bonding joints. The Bondo has been removed and replaced with an appropriate 'glass agent. The rest of the car is virgin.

The headlamp buckets will come out this week and the initial primer coat will go on. Looks promising for early May.

 

[vette rod]

Ther is nothing wrong with lacquer. It can be clear without a problem. The down fall to lacqer is when it gets old it is hard to spot in without shocking the paint causing crows feet (cracking). We have several of our show cars shot in lacquer as we prefer the finish, it's like glass. My personal car has house of kolors black cherry pearl paint job on it. We shot this car 10 years ago and it is still as nice as day one. I would do it in a minute, nothing wrong with lacquer. Let me know if I can answer any other of your questions also this is our site if you would like to see our work.

www.pugesekmotorsports.com

Larry

 

[1KULC7]

Ok Barry...here we go...

I would recommend NOT to mix lacquer and clear coat, especially if its urethane clear coat. These are some of the reasons. First, Lacquer today is considered to be a special interest paint, based on the VOC rules that governs the environment. This simply means the paint manufactuers are very hesitent on using and further developing lacquer base paints. This means the lacquers really don't mix well with todays clear coats. The lacquer remains a soft base and does not have the elesiticity found in todays base and clear coat mixtures. Secondly, it has been a known fact, especially in the BMW world, that it is very possible using a urethane CC on a Lacquer base, the paint after a few years peels off in sheets. As the painters say, the Lacquer lacks the bite needed for the CC to adhere to the lacquer surface. Simply put the lacquer is not a flexable paint. Another good reason is to check very close with the paint manufacturer, many do NOT support the mixing of a lacquer base with a CC top coat. So this is very important. In some cases, depending upon the CC and lacquer some manufacturers will say its OK.

Something else to thing about, Lacquer in not a soluable material, meaning if you use cleaners such as bug/tar remover you could actually damage the paint, even with a clear coat top. Even bird dropping will eat through.

Now if you go this direction, your car will look great for about three years, then you will start having problems. Unlike using Base and C/C, which will look great for 15 plus years. After about three years you will experience fading, spotting and degradation of the color (fade) regardless of the wax you use.

OK now with this said, what do you do. Well this is the approach we took. First when mixing the paints we did paint offsets, a few shades lighter and darker. We painted PANELS not little chips ,,,but larger panels of each of the shades to do the match. Usually you will find one to be much closer then the others, remembering this too, even the factory had shade variations...the paint chip is only used as a reference, not as Gospel.

So Barry if you need more help or another painter's advice you can contact my painter who is one of the best in the country.....I will provide this information to you. If you get back to me today...just post on this thread...
you can talk to the guy who actually shot my car and is just the best...so you can talk to both the bodyman and the painter, but have over 75 years of experience.....

Let me know...

 

[BarryK]

wow Paul, that is fast work by your shop already!
looking good so far. I wish I could say most of the body on my carwas virgin, but the history we found under the paint told a very different story. a lot of work had to go into my car just to correct what was done incorrectly multiple times in the past by previous owners.
Oh well, makes me even more glad I found a good shop to do my work.

 

[BarryK]

Hi Larry

thanks for the additional info on the lacquer


I've been to your website before and i was VERY impressed. The yellow car in your avatar and on he site is beautiful! Makes me really wish I had a lot of spare money - if I did I'd buy one of your cars in an instant!

Barry

PS: BTW, what is it about Larry's and yellow Vettes??!!

 

[BarryK]

Collin

sigh.........this is the problem i've been having on the paint stuff all along - from first deciding whether or not to go with lacquer or BC/CC and now lacquer with clear or not.........
Everyone seems to have different opinions.
It's just not as simple as asking if a particular part number is the correct one to use on the engine, or what the correct date code on a part should be.


Barry

PS: how is your engine project coming along?

 

[1KULC7]

Barry,

Sent you private message...talk to my painter....I think he will help you decide...I am sure he can even help your painter if they both talk and exchange ideas...DONT give up...find a solution...

 

[BarryK]

Collin

I PM'd you back
thanks!

nope, not giving up. after all this time with Baby in the shop and the work he did on making that body as perfect as he did I'm not about to give up now. Really, it's only been a 2 week delay, but since we are so close to the end it's getting hard to stay patient


Barry

 

[Vette66AirCoupe]

Barry,

Why not try a different paint supplier? It sounds like you really want to go BC/CC. You've still got time before serious Vette weather comes to Delaware. Explore some options. Kayfield Automotive Paint came highly recommended to me. I was referred to Gary who is a great guy by recommendation and by my impression when I went to his store. Maybe it would be a good idea to just stop in yourself and explain what your up against and see if he can help you.
107 Ruthar Dr. Newark, DE 302.369.0505. Good Luck and keep the faith. I'm sure it's going to end up beautful.

 

[BarryK]

Hi Terry

You told me about Kayfield the other day and I've been thinking about stopping by there.
I asked Joe about them and he knows them but thinks we will have the same issues but it might be worth a shot to stop in and talk to them.

I'm sure that if Joe was still at his old shop and still mixed his own paints this would have been solved long ago but now we are at the mercy of the paint supplier. If only they would let Joe go in and tint the paint himself we could solve this already.

 

[IH2LOSE]

Barry

I am no painter,But I went thru this with a Mustang color on a 1969 mustang Mach 1 called Royal Maroon.

The mistake I was making (this is a car I shot in laquer on my drive way) was that I was stirring my paint and then using the paint stick to compare the color to a fender I had replaced.In doing this the metalics just never came up on the stick as they did with spraying it under pressure. The guy who mixed the paint for me a secound time insisted I bring him the fender and he sprayed the fender and the color matched excact.It had to do with not spraying the paint to check the color.


Anyways good luck,

 

[PTighe]

The PPG paint code for '65 Milano Maroon metallic is #50706, see the link below. If your painter goes to a PPG paint dealer, they should have no problem mixing the correct tint. PT

http://www.corvettepaintcodes.com/

 

[John Mcgraw]

Barry,

If you are considering Lacquer, then don't go with the clear. The clear lacquer will protect the base color a little better but will still draw a big deduct at judging if the car is ever judged. The only rationale for using lacquer in todays paint market is for originality, and you shoot that in the butt by clear coating it, and you still have a paint that is fragile by any measure. I am a big believer in painting cars with lacquer for judging, but urethane is the only way to go for street driven cars. There is another alternative to BC CC, and that is single stage urethane like the PPG DCC product. This product is also called Concept, and is real tough, easy to touch-up and can be made to look just like lacquer.
It will probably lack some of the "mile deep" look that comes with a top of the line clearcoat job, but it is still a spectacular looking paint when properly applied and buffed.

Regards, John McGraw

 

[BarryK]

Hi Larry

the metallic is the smaller issue although still one of them. The biggest issue is the color tint they have been getting wrong.
Some of the samples they sent were so far off it was very ovious just from looking at it on a stirring stick that it was useless. On the samples that looked close in color tint he has been spraying them on a test panel but than it still looked way off.

 

[BarryK]

The PPG paint code for '65 Milano Maroon metallic is #50706, see the link below. If your painter goes to a PPG paint dealer, they should have no problem mixing the correct tint. PT

http://www.corvettepaintcodes.com/

hi PT

we do have the correct color codes for the Milano Maroon. The problem comes in that those original codes are from '65 and really only seem to work properly with original 1965 lacquer paints. Using new modern paints (and base coat paint, not lacquer) the paints themselves are different so the colors do not come out the same when using the correct mixing formula.

I guess it's kind of like trying to recreate a food recipe using different ingredients but still attempting to get the same taste.

 

[BarryK]

Hi John

yes, so far the concensus seems to be to try to stay away from using lacquer. We agreed at the beginning that BC/CC was the better choice for many reasons and I'd much rather stay with that choice.
It was only because of the frustration of trying to get the BC color mixed properly that we threw around the idea of going back to lacquer because the lacquer seems to mix up to a more accurate color tint much easier and than the idea of the clear over the lacquer was for more durability. Honestly, I don't know if he was considering doing a lacquer clear or an acylic clear over it but based on his experience I'm sure he knows what he was talking about.
even so, based on all the responses I'm inclined to keep trying to get the BC paints mixed to an acceptable color tint. I can live with it being SLIGHTLY off from the true original color but obviously we are trying to get it at least as close as we can.
ONE of the problems though is that since I am not the original owner of the car and it's previously been repainted at least 2 times before I don't have any PERSONAL knoweldge of what the true original color should really look like other than seeing on an original color chip. We still have a few trim pieces from the car that are in Milano Maroon but from the prior repaints who knows if the color on the car when I bought it was accurate.
Basically, we are trying to base the "proper" color on those paint chip samples and my painters own experience of what the proper color should be.
I'd rather not go with the single stage paints. I prefer the idea of having the extra "layers" of the clearcoat over the color coats for more durability so I guess we will just keep trying to get the BC/CC mixed properly.
I am checking with him today again to see what progress he has made with the PPG suppplier over the last 2 days. On Monday he was sending a new sprayed test panel again to them to try another match.

BTW, you pretty much said the same thing my painter said back in Sept when we were discussing what paints to use. He strongly recommended BC/CC back than over the lacquer also. He only recommends lacquer if it's going to be a real trailer queen show car. For a driver like mine he really prefers BC/CC himself. Like I said, the idea of going back to lacquer was born more out of frustration than anything else I think.

well, back to the BC/C mixing challenge!

Barry

 

[1KULC7]

Barry,

Good choice stay with BC/CC. I had to make my decision last year, and decided that even though I will get the car judged by NCRS, I will take the point deductions and not worry about the paint for the next 15 years, rather then dealing with all the worries of Lacquer if I just decide to drive the car for a cruise.

One of the people suggested using a different mixer....that might be the answer.

Please just remember this too....the paints back at when the factory applied them were variable in shade too. As batches of paint was mixed you did get lighter and darker shades and tints varied too.

I think you choose the closest color you can get with the color chip, spray a test panel....see the results and then either go up or down a shade, repeat process until you get it right. It takes time and work, but you need to spray a complete panel, to get the full effect, and you need to look at it in sunlight or daylight....DON'T trust indoor lighting.....us natural light.

Keep us informed....

 

[BarryK]

Collin

yes, I agree. Staying with the BC/CC is the better choice and I just spoke to my painter 10 minutes ago and we both agree that's what we are going to do.
If it means a little more delay until it's mixed correctly than so be it - I don't want to cut corners now after all this time.
we missed one deadline goal orginally planned for which was completion by last week becuase of the paint delays and now we will miss my second goal date of having the car back by my birthday (this weekend), but i feel better knowing that we are making the correct decision, sticking by our original plan, and the job will be done correctly and it will look great when it is finished. As you say, the paint should last me a good 15 years or more so a few extra weeks now won't make a difference in the long run and i'll be much happier about it.
hell, it's raining here the last 2 days and with weather like this it's easier to wait anyway. of course, give me a really nice sunny day with some warmth sneaking in and my patience will start to to get strained.........

Barry

 

[paul67]

Just a notion. Or heresy! What if a Corvette was not stripped with chemicals. Or blasted. Just taken down to basic 'glass/primer by hand-sanding. And then primed/sealed and done up in base/clear. Any problems with that? No stripping chemicals to soak through and lacquer/enamel issues. The original paint is gone. No chemicals underneath the new. This worked well with my 1979. That's DuPont Chroma Premier circa 2000. Looks solid to this day.