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change out of a 4+3 to a six speed?

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corvetteDan

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Gents, I just bought a nice looking ragtop that is great fun to drive. However, I noticed that the darn OD comes on when not wanted (between 1st to 2nd). Also, when heading into a right hand corver the OD slips. Iknow that these tarnsmissions are known for problems. First, does anyone know if the sliping could be from perhaps a low flued level? Also, I may decide to change out the unit for something else. A new type 6 speed comes to mind. Is this much of a problem??

If anyone of you gents (or gals), has info that it seems I would need, please email it to....

Thanks, and happu motoring.
 
Try changing the fluid and filter and see if that helps...They make a 6 speed that bolts in. Big bucks
 
Jon, I will try that today. Question, what is big bucks for the six speed. I mean, if I need to replace the 4/3 I'm in for $1200 anyway. Another $1000 seems like a deal to me as the long run may be another 4/3 in a few years with the way they seem to burn up.
 
Ecklers has one listed for $3,575.99 (plus shipping). You should be able to search around to get it a bit cheeper. I would see if the fluid change helps first...these 4+3 love to be clean, I change mine every 10,000 miles and have never had a single problem with it.
 
New: I had the fuid changed. Was not able to get the filter, nor were we able to get the lower pan off ( cross member would have to come out and I was at a jiffy lube). Anyway, there was less than 1/2 the amount in teh OD that should be. She does not slip anymore. But I still have the problem of the OD coming on between 1st and 2nd. I spoke with someone that works on these trans, and they tell me it is not in the trans, but perhaps in the switch.

Anyone have problems with the OD shifting "on" when the button is not pushed?

I toyed with it, and found that this does not happen in any other gear. Also when I put it back out of OD it stays. If I take off in 2nd it does not happen either.....


Thanks for the help!!
 
I think you're experiencing normal behavior... the transmission will shift from 1 to 2O to 3O to 4O if you're driving "normally". If you drive more aggressively, it'll stay in direct drive until you reach 4th, at which point it'll drop into 4O. Likewise, if you hit the button when at a stop, it'll stay in direct drive until you hit it again, or if you're out of 1st gear and hit the button it'll switch on or off depending. Then, if you go above I think 124 MPH, it'll drop into 40 even if you're flooring it.

Ken's got an awesome web page on the 4+3; make sure you read it before you try to fix anything else. Among other things, it shows how the transmission changed over the years. Look on <http://www.corvetteobsession.com> Then look in "The Garage", I think. I unfortunately have an old link bookmarked.

[RICHR]
 
It sounds normal to me. When you start the car the OD is turned on. There is no OD in first. Once the car has hit approx 128 on the temp guage the OD will automatically kick in via the ECM, unless you have toggled the switch off after start up. In addition if you "get on it" the ECM will disengage the OD until you hit fourth gear and then will shift into OD. The other way the ECM will shift into OD, even if you have it off, is when you hit 110mph.
 
Bummer, Ken... did you lose the info, or run out of space to store it?

Top - the behavior when you "get on it" varies from year to year. For example, our 86's won't drop out of OD if the engine is above a certain RPM (2600, I think?); that differs by year.
[RICHR]
 
If I'm on I15 here at 70mph @2k rpm and floor it mine disengages. Don't think I have tried it at 2600rpm.....hmmmm......sounds like a test on the way to work in the am.......lol

Cheers!! :beer
 
Thanks, Ken - that second was the chart I was referring to.

Hm. I can say unequivocably that my overdrive does *not* automatically upshift at 103 mph. Been there, not done that... (and before anyone howls, YES it was on a closed circuit with proper safety equipment).

So Mr. Corvette Dan's OD should kick out if he's doing less than 2500 RPMs, not 2600 as I stated.
[RICHR]
 
Hey, Thanks! I've got to sort out the info, and make some test. But this form and other narrative sure seem to answer some questions. I've still got a problem with the method of the trans going into OD when shifting from 1 - 2. I just don't think this should be the case. seems like it should stay in normal, and then only OD when you want it, (or perhaps in high gear at top end on the hwy).

I don't have an owners manual. so how does one put the car in and out of "direct" as stated in the info? (1988 C4)

Anyway, datrn good info. No one at the local chevy dealer knew anything about it. You guys are great!
 
No, it'll drop into OD as soon as you get out of first by design (provided the oil temp is over I think 172). The rationale is that GM wanted fuel efficiency and the engine has plenty of torque so unless you're driving 'spiritedly' then you probably want to save gas.

One of the documents that Ken has (that he didn't post) explains some of the history and design behind the 4+3. What you have, in essence, are two separate 4-speed transmissions, one geared for speed (direct) and one geared for economy (overdrive). The ECU selects which one it feels you want to be in by your behavior with the gas pedal.

You go in and out of direct/OD by pressing the button on top of the gearshift (where the shift pattern is - the front pushes down).

One thing you can do with your 88 that I can't with my 86 is remove all computer control of the OD. A couple people here have done it; maybe they can chime in. You disconnect one plug from the transmission and jumper it and then the button on the stick is the only control over the OD. You wind up with an 8-speed transmission then - you can do 1st OD if you really want to.

[RICHR]
 
Manual control of 4+3 overdrive

I have an '86 and modified the lines going to the ECM so I could control the OD relay with the button on the shifter. Had to replace the switch with a push on/push off, as the stock switch is a temporary, normally open switch.

If someone wants some wiring info, I might be able to dig it up, but it's all there in your shop manual. Also put a small capacitor between the leads of the switch for noise suppression, otherwise you'd hear a distinct "click" coming out of your radio speakers



I **HIGHLY** recommend against it. I ended up burning up the OD unit and needed a rebuild. The trans is not designed to operate at certain RPMs. It was pretty cool at first. I could floor it, then hit the button to shift into 1st gear OD, which would take me up to about 40 mph, then I could shift normally.
 
I found some more information...

It was a good idea in 1984; you could order your new Corvette with a four-speed manual transmission that had an overdrive on the top three gears, and suddenly had a seven-speed transmission in your Corvette. This 4+3 transmission was really nothing more than two separate transmissions mated together to form one unit. By combining these two transmissions, Chevrolet was able to give us seven forward gears. We have the EPA to thank for this marvelous combination, but more on that later.

This poor 4+3 transmission was put down from day one. Everyone complained about the way the transmission shifted, and the way the overdrive unit worked. Most of this wasn't justified. A lot of the people who complained about the 4+3 had never driven one that was properly adjusted. The fact that the average Chevrolet dealership didn't know, or didn't care, to properly adjust the transmission, didn't help its reputation one single bit. This unit also suffered because the German six-speed that replaced it in 1988 was really much better. Nonetheless, if you have a 4+3 in your Corvette don't get all worked up. This is really a good transmission.

The 4+3 manual transmission was the old Borg-Warner T-10 that had been around for decades. Doug Nash, who is no longer in business, bought the rights to the transmission from Warner Gear in June of 1982, and built the transmission to Chevrolet specifications. The case was strengthened, and several flanges were added to the rear for the mounting of the overdrive unit. This basic four-speed unit has proven to be bullet proof, and very few people have ever had a problem with the manual section of the transmission.

One of the critical engineering tests Chevrolet was using at the time was called a "spike test." The transmission was run at a specific rpm and the clutch was engaged for both low and reverse gear. The test was done three times at 2,000 rpm, three times at 3,000 rpm, and so forth until 5,000 rpm was reached. This was one major reason for the strengthening of the case.Another reason for the different case design was the due to the fact the fourth generation Corvette was designed so that the transmission and rear axle operate as a single rigid unit. The channel beam that you see under your Corvette is put there to tie the transmission and rear differential case together as a single unit. In earlier Corvettes this load was taken up with the frame crossmembers. The rigidity of this assembly is a real benefit to the Corvette, and the same design was retained when the six-speed was introduced in 1989.

The overdrive unit was hung off the back of the four-speed transmission. In a great many ways the overdive unit is very similar to the old two-speed Powerglide. This particular unit was originally designed for the Jeep CJ-7 and CJ-5. Chevrolet was working on such a tight deadline for the fourth generation Corvette that there was no time to develop a new unit specifically for the Corvette. The early thoughts were that the unit from the 1934 Chrysler Airflow could be used. The engineering team also looked at the GKN/Laycock de Normanville units that were used in a lot of European cars.

The problem with these units was that they couldn't handle the torque of the small block Chevrolet engine. In the end Chevrolet went back to the unit that Doug Nash had setting on his shelf. Delco Electronics solved the computer problems and made sure that the manual section and the OD were truly integrated units. All of this was really done to meet the EPA fuel mileage regulations, but at the same time the overdrive fourth gear provided a high-speed cruising capability that no previous Corvette ever had. The top speed of the C4 Corvette is tremendous. At the same time you get the great acceleration in the lower gears with the overdrive disengaged.

The EPA was the major reason that there was never a thought of putting a five-speed in the Corvette. There was no way that a five-speed could have had a 0.68:1 top gear. This was the secret to the 4+3; a tremendous ratio for the top end. Keep in mind that there were no six-speeds available at the time. The irony of this whole situation was that a wide-ratio three-speed transmission would have easily met the EPA mileage figures.

As Dave McLellan explained in 1983: "the best possible manual transmission is a wide-ratio three-speed. I'm not saying it's much good for a Corvette driving down the road, but it's best for EPA numbers because of the way the EPA test is structured. EPA rules say you can't shift into second below 15 mph, into third gear below 25, or fourth below 40. And if you've got a fifth gear you can't get into fifth until you reach 45 mph. lf you run a five-speed transmission with a top gear for cruising fuel economy, you'll benefit the customer all right, but your advantage in the EPA highway cycle is only about a half a mile per gallon. If on the other hand, you've got only three speeds you can get into top gear a lot sooner, and that'll save mileage considerably, more than half a mile per gallon. Anyway, in a Corvette, what you need for acceleration are four normal ratios, lower than that will simply light up the tires."

_ken :w
 
the final story

Gents, First, thanks for such great info. I went from thinking I had to buy a new OD unit, to understanding mine is fine in less than 48 hrs. All due to this forum.

First, my last Corvette was a 1958, so my knowledge of them is somewhat dated. A week ago I bought the used 88 C-4 with the trans in question ( 4+ 3). Little did I know then that I really didn't know a lot about it. I thought it was simply an Over drive unit, but in fact it's much more.

From the info I found that when the car is started the OD is on. A simple push of the button disables it, and hence the OD is not a bother around town. (I'd rather it be the other way, have the car start out in normal, and make OD an option. But as long as I know the rules of the game all is well). Shifting the car into OD in 4th for hwy works fine. The shift down when the car is nailed also works. The initial problems of teh slipping was simply due to the low fluid level.

So, lesson learned:

1. Know you machinery. Yes, easy to say but I started with no owners manual, and no info in the least about the trans.

2. When you don't know the details seek info from those that do. ( great forums with informed people like this one).

3. Check the fluid levels 1st. ( felt really dumb after I found this was the case).

So, at least I am lucky in the fact that I don't need a new OD unit. 24 hrs about I felt really bad about buying the car and felt like I had been taken to the cleaners a bit. Today, I drove some 150 miles in and around New Orleans, across the causeway, with top down listening to the engine purr. And to make it all the better understanding the trans and making the best use of it. After I now understand the 4 + 3, I tend to like it!

Thanks for the info guys, very much appreciated!
 
I just bought a nice looking ragtop that is great fun to drive. However, I noticed that the darn OD comes on when not wanted (between 1st to 2nd). Also, when heading into a right hand corver the OD slips. Iknow that these tarnsmissions are known for problems. First, does anyone know if the sliping could be from perhaps a low flued level? Also, I may decide to change out the unit for something else. A new type 6 speed comes to mind. Is this much of a problem??

If anyone of you gents (or gals), has info that it seems I would need, please email it to....

Thanks, and happy motoring.

First of all, let me say that if the OD is slipping in turns...yes, check the fluid level.

While the Doug Nash (what the 4+3 was called by GM engineers--at least when they were speaking in mixed company) has developed a few die-hard fans, the fact of the matter is: it was a POS.

The Doug Nash was made-up of a strengthened Warner Super T10 four-speed (beefed-up by DNE after it bought the design and tooling when Warner Gear exited the four-speed manual business in the late 70s) combined with a electro-hydraulic, 2-speed auxilary transmission. The 2-spd overdrive was originally developed by DNE for RV use but was heavily-modified and fitted with computer-controls for use in the Corvette.

The bottom line was that DNE Corp. sold GM a poorly-engineered design and continued the scam with awful quality control. Actually, the gearbox section was pretty good. It was the electric overdrive that sucked, big-time.

GM knew by late 85, it had a problem and launched the program that resulted in the ZF six-speed in 1989. In the meantime, GM paid dearly for the Doug Nash in an obscene level of warranty costs and many angry customers.

It is Richmond Gear that sells a six-speed conversion kit for the 84-88s. The kit includes the Richmond six-speed along with extra parts and a shifter necessary to bolt-the transmission into an early C4.

For more information contact Richmond Gear 864-843-9231 or www.richmondgear.com
 
Re: Re: change out of a 4+3 to a six speed?

Hib Halverson said:
Actually, the gearbox section was pretty good. It was the electric overdrive that sucked, big-time.

We've always known that Hib. ;)

It is Richmond Gear that sells a six-speed conversion kit for the 84-88s. The kit includes the Richmond six-speed along with extra parts and a shifter necessary to bolt-the transmission into an early C4.

...And it is worth every penny! :upthumbs

_ken :w
 
With all this 4+3 wisdom maybe someone could help me out with my 1985, my overdrive unit was rebuilt a few months ago and then it started not working periodically, I checked fluids and stuff and I can't figure it out, Ken gave me some good advice but still doesn't work, the overdrive light comes on but it doesn't shift. I'm guessing that it could be the selenoid inside the overdrive, is this hard to change and does anyone know where I could get one from????????? Thanks.
 

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