Distributor help needed urgently PLEASE

[vettefinderjim]

Find a good shop with a scope. It should not cost more that one hour to have the car checked properly. Make sure they do a complete timing check looking at the total advance and vacumn of the engine at idle and under power. Many times the best techs are at your emmision control stations. They have to know what is going on to properly repair vehicles for smog checks. I did it for 35 years, and the engines of today are really not that much different from the 60's. Just have fuel injection and electronic controls. Timing, valves, camshafts etc all work the same.

 

[allcoupedup]

Barry,

You've been given a good deal of advice. Whatever it is you do, I recommend you approach your engine problems as subsets. Verify TDC, recurve your distributor, and then set your valve lash. If you try to do all at once you'll find yourself in a big mess.

I recommend pulling your distributor and having it set up on a SUN machine - that way you can forget about your balancer for a second and ISOLATE the distributor. Sun machines can test advance as well as scatter and dwell across the entire RPM range and adjustments are easy. If you ISOLATE it, you don't have to worry about being a tooth off or mismatched dampers or any other BS (timing chain, lash, valves, cam lobes, etc..)

Get that fixed and working properly and move to the valves - set the lash. If you want to be sure about your cam you can buy a dial gauge and measure the lift.

Remember - your engine is a system of subsystems - the only way to avoid a kluge is to address one subsystem at a time.
Good luck.
Brian

 

[studiog]

Hi Barry,
I've been reading all the posts here... wow allot of good advice and I'm sure it can be confusing but I think most of us are basically telling you the same things, each in our own way. Don't assume the worst and don't let it get you down. Since you mentioned you don't have your own tools or experience this is probably not a great starter project for you. I would just take it to either the Chevy dealer (ask them if they have a mech. that knows the old cars) as Tempus_Fugit mentioned or County Corvette. Like Tempus said it should only be $50-100 and you should walk out of there with a good running car or at least good info on what it needs and maybe a big smile... just like the happy MAC face on startup

 

[BarryK]

Allcoupedup and studiog

thanks for the replys.
I was at a cruise night last night with a number of other members of my Vette club and we discussed my problem. They all agreed with the advice everyone has been giving me here and since I can't do the work myself they gave me the same of two mechanics/shops to take my car to to get it right. They all agreed on these two places and these are guys who have been into the Vette "hobby" for a LONG time.
So now at least i have one or two RELIABLE places I should be able to trust to get my car running right.
Also, EVERYONE of these guys last night also agreed with the advice I was given on here that I would be much better off upgrading to electronic ignition. Even though I was trying to hold off on that until I got everything running correct in a stock condition as I had previously stated maybe i was being a bit anal about it. LOL

A few of the guys last night just have the electronic conversion kits that fit inside the stock distributor like I was considering anyway and a few of the others have a complete replacment electronic distributor that has a seperate box and everything.
Any recommendations on what I should go with here? I had beem looking at a unit made by Lectric Limited simply because it installed inside the stock distributor and was a one-wire unit retaining a stock look and seemed to be reasonably not that expensive - only about $159. Anyone have any experience with this unit?
What about if I go with a full complete replacement electronic distibutor? I really want to retain as much "stock" look as possible so it must fit under the chrome shielding. The extra "box" I know I can find a tucked away corner to mount it in so it will be at least partially hidden. Any recommndations on Accel or MSD, or any other units?
Cost is a bit of a consideration also and I need as much bang for the buck. normally I'd say lets just go for the best available and be done with it so it's one less area to worry about but having been recently laid off work and already having spent too much money on this problem funds are a bit tight. ( i know, i know, for what I've already spent I could probably have already bought the best electronics package out there and had it in already but nothing ever seems to go right for me the first time)

Thanks everyone! I REALLY appreciate all your help!

BTW Studiog, nice reference back to the Macs!

 

[ctjackster]

Barry - you have all the advice you need right now, plus the fact that you are not doing the wrenching yourself means that you can only suggest things that your mechanic might take you up on. Like some of the others, I too have a 65 L76 (365 hp SHP) so much of what you are going through and hearing (solid lifters, Holley carb issues, special weights and springs in the dist, special vac can, etc.) are familiar.

I'll be honest with you - while I certainly advocate doing much of this work yourself (hell, you have access here and on the other C2-heavy forums to waaay better advice on your 65 L76 than any single mechanic has, often right from the guy who was there on the line, or the guy that has raced this car, or the guy who actually writes the tech column in Corvette Enthusiast, etc.) going it alone, for the first time, leads to a huge amount of self doubt when you encounter problems.

Especially the all-too-familiar problems with the ignition circuit. Familiar to me too. For instance, I put in all new plug wires (intalled in the cap "by the book") soon after asquiring my 65, and the car would not start, not even catch. I had done some other housekeeping items at the same tie - big mistake doing four things before testing, as you then do not know which item is killing you - and it took me a long time and much self-doubting before I figured out that the dist was installed a tooth off, I discovered this when I "walked" the plug wires around the dist cap in one last act of desperation. Since these cars are 40 years old, many hands (well meaning, to be sure) have been on them and the sky is the limit as far as what has been messed up or changed.

I think I suggested to you earlier to wait on the electronic ignition thing - honestly, once you get that thing running properly, you won't notice any improvement (performance-wise) after the change to electronic ign., and the limited use these cars get mean that the usual claim that "you don't need to replace points ever again" is really without merit. Plus, when the elctronic ign (Petronix, whatever) fails, it is not as easy to diagnose or fix as having points needing adjustment or replacement.

Once you get past the mysterious problems you are having now (I vote that it is a distributor-related matter, tooth off, 180 degrees off, plug wires installed in the cap wrong, maybe a short or a bad connection, etc.) and I assure you that you will get it figured out, I look forward to the next round of questions / issues, let's just call it the "Holley phase" of your experience!

 

[BarryK]

Barry - you have all the advice you need right now, plus the fact that you are not doing the wrenching yourself means that you can only suggest things that your mechanic might take you up on. Like some of the others, I too have a 65 L76 (365 hp SHP) so much of what you are going through and hearing (solid lifters, Holley carb issues, special weights and springs in the dist, special vac can, etc.) are familiar.

I'll be honest with you - while I certainly advocate doing much of this work yourself (hell, you have access here and on the other C2-heavy forums to waaay better advice on your 65 L76 than any single mechanic has, often right from the guy who was there on the line, or the guy that has raced this car, or the guy who actually writes the tech column in Corvette Enthusiast, etc.) going it alone, for the first time, leads to a huge amount of self doubt when you encounter problems.

Especially the all-too-familiar problems with the ignition circuit. Familiar to me too. For instance, I put in all new plug wires (intalled in the cap "by the book") soon after asquiring my 65, and the car would not start, not even catch. I had done some other housekeeping items at the same tie - big mistake doing four things before testing, as you then do not know which item is killing you - and it took me a long time and much self-doubting before I figured out that the dist was installed a tooth off, I discovered this when I "walked" the plug wires around the dist cap in one last act of desperation. Since these cars are 40 years old, many hands (well meaning, to be sure) have been on them and the sky is the limit as far as what has been messed up or changed.

I think I suggested to you earlier to wait on the electronic ignition thing - honestly, once you get that thing running properly, you won't notice any improvement (performance-wise) after the change to electronic ign., and the limited use these cars get mean that the usual claim that "you don't need to replace points ever again" is really without merit. Plus, when the elctronic ign (Petronix, whatever) fails, it is not as easy to diagnose or fix as having points needing adjustment or replacement.

Once you get past the mysterious problems you are having now (I vote that it is a distributor-related matter, tooth off, 180 degrees off, plug wires installed in the cap wrong, maybe a short or a bad connection, etc.) and I assure you that you will get it figured out, I look forward to the next round of questions / issues, let's just call it the "Holley phase" of your experience!

CT

as always, thanks for the reply1
As you understand since I can't do the work myself and I'm dependent on others to do the work for me it's more frustrating. If I did do my own work on the car I know this forum is an excellent source of information and all the advice you and the others have given me is first rate but I'm stilkl dependent on somebody else to do the actual job for me. As you say, I can now at least mention or suggest areas to look at that I was adviced on here.

As per your previous advice and that I had agreed with at the time, I really did want to stick with a "stock" codition distributor and ignition and not go electronic - at least not until I knew it was running correctly "stock". On this issue though I'm really just getting more and more confused as many people told me that a properly running car in stock condition will run as good as it is capable of and I should just stick to that as you say, but so many others also suggest upgrading to electronic as it's more reliable, easier starting, better throttle response, and even better gas milage.
Getting opposing advice on the same issue makes it very frustrating......almost everyone knows more than I do about this stuff and I know so many of you on here and in my Vette Club giving me advice are true "experts" and I do not doubt or question yours or their knowledge but now I have to really decide which of all the expert advice and recommendations is best to follow.
:confused
All I want is this car running the way it should be once and for all and not have to worry about it each time I take it out.

As for the Holley Phase, lets not get into that! My friend has a '65 vert with the 327/350 and has a ton of problems with his Holley. It's been rebuilt 4 times and still causes him problems about 75% of the time he drives the car.

 

[ctjackster]

CT

I really did want to stick with a "stock" codition distributor and ignition and not go electronic - at least not until I knew it was running correctly "stock". On this issue though I'm really just getting more and more confused as many people told me that a properly running car in stock condition will run as good as it is capable of and I should just stick to that as you say, but so many others also suggest upgrading to electronic as it's more reliable, easier starting, better throttle response, and even better gas milage.

you're right Barry, and to be honest there are definately two different schools of thought on the benefit(s) to be gained by switching from a points/condensor set up to electronic ignition, just like some will tell you that putting in a high output coil will make a big difference, performance-wise, while others will say a (properly set up) spark is a spark. Must be confusing to one who has not tried out some of these mods himself, hard to know which of your "trusted advisors" is right and who is not. Aside from these well-known debates (try asking which tire is "best") your friends here really just have your best interests at heart, and want you to enjoy your car.

 

[BarryK]

Aside from these well-known debates your friends here really just have your best interests at heart, and want you to enjoy your car.

of that I have no doubt!

 

[JohnZ]

The LAST thing I'd worry about is an electronic conversion, especially spending $700 for an MSD system. Pull the distributor, get it on a Sun Machine, verify its function and centrifugal and vacuum advance systems and re-curve to the original factory specs (takes about an hour). Then pull the plugs and verify the balancer index line-vs.-timing tab "0" mark for #1 TDC with a piston stop, and then put it back together the way it was designed to run. Then set dwell and base timing, set idle speed and mixture, lash the valves, and you've got a solid baseline to work from. Forget the "hot-rod" crap until it's set up the way it was built originally, and you'll be happy with it. These cars were well-engineered, and if they're set up to original specs, they run like gangbusters; as soon as people start trying to "out-engineer the engineers" from catalogs, you're likely to find all manner of weird problems, and even weirder "solutions" to cover them up.

The "30-30" cam was never designed for low-end torque, which is why it was always paired with a standard 3.70 axle (others were optional); it was designed to make power from 3500-up, and it does so very well - low-end torque was never its strong suit. I've had six different cars with it, and I'm pretty familiar with the "30-30" and its care and feeding; anyone who tells you valves have to be lashed every month is simply misinformed or is just clueless and doesn't know what they're talking about. Once a season is enough, unless you're putting on 20K miles a year. Don't pay a lot of attention to the guys who tell you they wind them up to 7500 rpm all the time, either - with stock rods, all that will get you is a hail of steel and aluminum fragments through the side of the block and the bottom of the oil pan; may sound great during BS sessions at the local cruise-in, but it's hogwash.

Set it up RIGHT first, then decide if you need something else; I don't think you will.

 

[BarryK]

The LAST thing I'd worry about is an electronic conversion, especially spending $700 for an MSD system. Pull the distributor, get it on a Sun Machine, verify its function and centrifugal and vacuum advance systems and re-curve to the original factory specs (takes about an hour). Then pull the plugs and verify the balancer index line-vs.-timing tab "0" mark for #1 TDC with a piston stop, and then put it back together the way it was designed to run. Then set dwell and base timing, set idle speed and mixture, lash the valves, and you've got a solid baseline to work from. Forget the "hot-rod" crap until it's set up the way it was built originally, and you'll be happy with it. These cars were well-engineered, and if they're set up to original specs, they run like gangbusters; as soon as people start trying to "out-engineer the engineers" from catalogs, you're likely to find all manner of weird problems, and even weirder "solutions" to cover them up.

The "30-30" cam was never designed for low-end torque, which is why it was always paired with a standard 3.70 axle (others were optional); it was designed to make power from 3500-up, and it does so very well - low-end torque was never its strong suit. I've had six different cars with it, and I'm pretty familiar with the "30-30" and its care and feeding; anyone who tells you valves have to be lashed every month is simply misinformed or is just clueless and doesn't know what they're talking about. Once a season is enough, unless you're putting on 20K miles a year. Don't pay a lot of attention to the guys who tell you they wind them up to 7500 rpm all the time, either - with stock rods, all that will get you is a hail of steel and aluminum fragments through the side of the block and the bottom of the oil pan; may sound great during BS sessions at the local cruise-in, but it's hogwash.

Set it up RIGHT first, then decide if you need something else; I don't think you will.

Hi John

I was hopinng you would jump in at some point. You really confirmed what I wanted to do all along - get it running correctly as a stock set-up without the electronics!
The problem has been achieving that goal so far....
I got a new recommndation of a mechanic not too far away that a lot of my Vette club guys have used and swear by so i'll give him a try and hopefully he will have better success than my other mechanic did.

Barry