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socor7

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2004
Messages
79
Location
Denver, Co
Corvette
1976 White with red Int 4 speed
Well out driving my 76 vette around today and all of a sudden, when I was as far away from my house the temp pegs at 280, so I filled it with more water because it was empty, was not aware I had a coolant leak well I guess I know now. She ran at 280 for quite a while, and I think something happened to the oil, it is a thick sludge on the tops of the valve covers. What do I need to do to get here back running and what sort of damage do I need to check for, do I need to take the heads off and look at the pistons and cylander wall to see if I did any damage. I know I will have to do an oil and filter change, and find and fix the leak in the cooling system, but am just worried about internal damage. will a compression test tell me enough or should I visually inspect.
oh and a side note it no longer wants to idle, to keep it running I have to reve the engine.

any help is greatly appreciated.
 
Hmmmm, I hope this isn't as bad as it sounds but it doesn't sound good.

Don't run the engine anymore until you've addressed the oil & coolant at the very least. Without oil & coolant, you're damaging the motor with every turn of the crank.

Hopefully, someone will jump in here and give you some advice. Unfortunately, I have to run (taking the motor from my hot tub in for repairs) but I'll check back later.

-Mac
 
well I just drained the oil and yet there is coolant in the oil and did a compression check as well, very little pressure on passangers bank, and 120 to 150 on drivers bank with # 7 on the drivers bank with water in it, from some where so it looks like a total rebuild coming my way. may be a new engine (ouch on the wallet)

thanks

Drew
 
Yeah, don't jump to too many horrible conclusions...

It's possible you have very little damage at all. Absolutely STOP running it!

Bearings and rings tolerate a lot of brief thermal abuse and more age than get damaged from an overheat or short duration low oil pressure (or condition) event.

One key thing - did you have good (especially normal for the car) oil pressure the last time you ran it? I really hate to sugggest this, but if you didn't notice, you might even consider very breifly running it one more time (under 30 secs) - and at very low rpm - just to see this.

If you choose to do that, refill oil and water first - and notice not only what the oil pressure is but how quickly it rises to normal from start and listen closely for any noises such as lifters or a deep, horrible cyclic thumping noise which could be a rod knocking. Hopefully you already noticed the oil pressure though and do not need to do this....really, really, really try to avoid even turning the motor over much if possible, let alone running it. Knowing your oil pressure situation though will have a huge impact on what all you need to consider doing - so much that you really need to know it even at the risk of adding some more damage.

You will normally hear angry hydraulic lifters with oil problems long before you are losing main bearing condition, which will quickly lower oil pressure. Again, you will normally see very low or largely fluctuating oil pressure (at a given rpm) with damaged or overly worn main bearings before you hear rods knocking from damaged rod bearings. Even more, you normally will hear rods knocking (and more than just one) before you have cam bearing damage. Cam bearing damage is the worst problem because they are such a pain to change in the vehicle.

Note the compression checks very carefully - write down each single one. If you want, you can do the "wet" test with a couple of squirts of thin oil (WD40 works OK) in the cylinder and re running the test, but you must both use a very uniform amount in each cylinder for the information to be of any use and the information is of arguable use any how to determine ring and valve stem seal condition. (I never got much from the wet test and stopped doing them.)

Now, with aluminum heads, you'd be looking closer to some warped heads or at least reseated valves, but less so with iron heads.

Since you need to pull the heads to swap gaskets, take the heads in to a decent machine shop to have them checked for straightness, valves seated right (leaks), valve guides, seals, etc. (If it's been a while, this is a great time for a little 3-angle valve job and new springs - a whole head rebuild - for $300 or so...)

With any luck you didn't damage pistons, scar the bores or even wear out rings, and bearings are the more likely heavily worn - but even that is far from likely. All (except for cam) bearings are easily changed from the bottom. You can pop off a couple of main caps first to see if they look reasonable.

If you have some cross hatching left in all the cylinder bores, you're only left with the decision on whether to go ahead and re-ring at this convenient time.

You need the critical information on compression and oil pressure before getting to this level decision, but should the worst all be true and you have major damage - consider all your options.

Is your car an NCRS numbers matching effort? Is the engine even original? These factor into the consideration as to whether to undertake an expensive extensive rebuilding versus putting in new much more powerful crate engine.
Your '76 came with the weakest engine GM ever made - except for the one mine came with :ugh - and crate engines with stronger components and good heads are available as cheap as a rebuild. A stock '76 ranges what 185-205 hp and similar torque?

Just here in the JEG's catalog laying on the floor GM Performance Parts crate engines range from a modest "target" motor making 290hp/325ftlb for $1600 to 330hp/380ftlb for just $2400. Numerous manufacturers make crate motors up to considerably more power than in the new vette plants for under $6K. There is even the option of easily changing to a big block powerplant and adding a few hundred to those numbers (big blocks fit in '76's easily...)

Should it come down to a major rebuild requiring the engine to be pulled rather than just a head gasket change, consider those options carefully.
 
Blown head gasket

socor7 said:
Well out driving my 76 vette around today and all of a sudden, when I was as far away from my house the temp pegs at 280, so I filled it with more water because it was empty, was not aware I had a coolant leak well I guess I know now. She ran at 280 for quite a while, and I think something happened to the oil, it is a thick sludge on the tops of the valve covers. What do I need to do to get here back running and what sort of damage do I need to check for, do I need to take the heads off and look at the pistons and cylander wall to see if I did any damage. I know I will have to do an oil and filter change, and find and fix the leak in the cooling system, but am just worried about internal damage. will a compression test tell me enough or should I visually inspect.
oh and a side note it no longer wants to idle, to keep it running I have to reve the engine.

any help is greatly appreciated.

Been there done that.
Blown head gasket, you won't be able to keep any water in it after you change the oil. Never put water in an engine when it's over heated.
 
wayne, thanks for the great reply, I did have good oil pressure, and no it is not a numbers match car, it already has all the smog stuff removed, after market heads (cast) and probably a new cam, not sure about the pistons, but before this happened I was running 150 psi compression on all 8 cylanders. but we will see for sure tomorrow and I will report back in what I see once I get everything taken apart. And if worst comes true, I have to save and put in a new engine, and since I have it out may be a tko 5 speed. but I guess for now I should start saving money.
 
Well, you didn't seize it. That's a good sign. The top end(heads, intake) will have to be redone. To get the sludge out the heads will have to be hot tanked and the heads will need to be checked for cracks, burnt valves and warpage. The worst that could have happened is that your heads have cracked due to overheating and adding cold water. When you have the heads off, you can see if the block has sludge in it too. If it does, then a hot tank and rebuild of your lower end is probably a good idea.

It's not going to run well after that kind of experience without a rebuild. Chalk it up to experience. If you do the work yourself, a bore,pistons,rings,bearings,cam,lifters,oil pump, timing chain, valve job, gaskets souldn't cost more than $1,300- $1,600.
 
Maybe a crate engine would be the way to go... comes complete with guarantee!

-Mac
 
Mac said:
Maybe a crate engine would be the way to go... comes complete with guarantee!-Mac
Ditto ... especially since the car is not numbers matching (assume motor does not match VIN). A GoodWrench crate 350 with about 250 HP is easily available from GM dealer for $1300-$1600 ... and it's ALL BRAND NEW (not rebuilt) and has a long GM warranty.
JACK:gap
 
The above 290 HP GMPP crate 350 motor & most other GMPP crate motors have 12 months/12K miles warranty. The 290 HP has a cam like an L-82 vette motor.

Last time I checked, the approx 250HP universal Goodwrench 350 has much longer 36 months/50K miles GM warranty but has a smaller cam ... like an L-48 vette motor.
JACK:gap
 
well got the heads off and found some things, not sure if I was the one to actually do them , but I did find 2 pistons that were missing some metal, but did not find any metal in the oil when I drained it. I also checked the wall of the cylander and there was some scoring on the #8 piston( drivers bank, closest to the driver.)this was one of the pistons missing some metal,and was full of coolant (probably for a blown head gasket). I have pics but don't know how to post them here, any help would be appreciated. All the other cylander walls look smother and seam fine. There is some carbon deposites on the cylander, and the heads could use a clean, and probably a valve job. Is there and easy to test for a bent valve?

Thanks for all the help. and the pistons that are missing some metal seam to seal fine with the piston rings, and the cylander wall.

and help or suggerstions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Drew
 
socor7 said:
well got the heads off and found some things, not sure if I was the one to actually do them , but I did find 2 pistons that were missing some metal, but did not find any metal in the oil when I drained it. I also checked the wall of the cylander and there was some scoring on the #8 piston( drivers bank, closest to the driver.)this was one of the pistons missing some metal,and was full of coolant (probably for a blown head gasket). I have pics but don't know how to post them here, any help would be appreciated. All the other cylander walls look smother and seam fine. There is some carbon deposites on the cylander, and the heads could use a clean, and probably a valve job. Is there and easy to test for a bent valve?

Thanks for all the help. and the pistons that are missing some metal seam to seal fine with the piston rings, and the cylander wall.

and help or suggerstions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Drew

You work fast!
First, any scratches on the pistons or cylinders means that a minimum rebore of .020" is going to have to be done along with new .020" pistons.

Look at your combustion chambers on the heads real close to see if there is a crack in the casting. If the leak was not caused by the head gasket, there will be a crack in the head, probably between cylinders.

The valve spring retainers and springs will have to be removed with a valve spring compressor to get the valves out. Once out, roll the valve stems on a machinists flat to see it the shafts are bent.

With all the damage so far, I would be thinking crate motor at this point.
 
more bad news

well I emptied the fluid from the #8 cylander last night and low and be hold it is full again, the scratch in the cylander wall is not a scratch, but a crack, leaking fluid back in to the cylander. time to start saving for a new engine. I was thinking of the 330 horse partially built engine (number NAL-12486041)
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=crate+engine&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&searchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp
and while I was at the replacement I think I am going to do the tko 600 5 speed (5th gear .64), for better gas milage and save the engine some rpm's while crusing, to work which is a ways down the highway.

so need less to say it is going to be a few months before I get to drive her again

thanks,
Drew
 
Oh that just plain sucks doesn't it?
At least you didn't pay someone to tell you the bad news, so you at least know the cause, the effect, and the results.
You may think about getting a new shortblock if all of your heads and stuff are still OK, that will save you some bucks and shorten your wait time.
Too bad about your motor, I hate it when that happens.
 
Have not Though of that

The heads are not that great, and am not really sure in what kind of condition they are in they are SR made by world products, 170cc runners 1.94 intake and 1.55 exhaust and has crane roller rockers, and I am not sure if they are 64 cc or 76cc chambers. and I am not sure what kind of cam is in it. and I would have to get a new set of pistons cause two are missing metal. I am a little new to the whole engine build, but I will soon learn. I am not sure if they are very good heads, they are cast, and I don't know if they will need to be milled or not thanks for the idea.

Drew
 
Best bang for the buck: ~$1400 at your LOCAL dealer, all brand new from valve covers to pan, ~250HP, ~304TQ, your parts bolt right up, nice 36mo/50Kmi "Transferrable Warranty" from GM GoodWrench. GM P/N 10067353. This motor specs out as good or better than an L-48 vette motor.http://www.gmpartsdepot.com/store/product1.aspx?SID=2&Product_ID=516&Category_ID=3& BTW ... stick a set of vortec heads on it and a little more cam in it and it'll spec out like the referenced 330HP 350 H.0. motor ... but vortec heads won't bolt up to your present intake manifold. Sell your SR heads, crank & rods ... come up with about $1K more ... you'd be riding with new, warranteed 350 having at least as much giddyup as your '76 delivered with. G'Luck.
JACK:gap
 

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