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engine oil

  • Thread starter Thread starter LOUVETTE
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The viscosity range indicated by the SAE numbers is fairly wide and the numbers themselves are quite arbitrary.

Viscosity is measured is with a Saybolt orifice viscometer, which is basically a cup surrounded by a water bath to keep the temperature of the oil sample constant. There's a plugged opening in the bottom of the cup which is opened when the oil is at the proper temperature. The oil is captured in a 60ml flask and the amount of time required to fill the flask is recorded.
  • SAE30 oil takes 58-70 seconds to fill the flask at 210&176;F
  • SAE40 oil takes 70-85 seconds
  • SAE50 oil takes 85-110 seconds

There's also a test for low-temperature viscosity that's designated by a "W" suffix on the SAE viscosity rating.
  • SAE5W oil takes less than 6000 seconds to fill the flask at 0&176;F
  • SAE10W oil takes 6000-12000 seconds
  • SAE20W takes 12000-48000 seconds

A "multiviscosity" oil is simply an oil that has been rated using both tests. Nothing magic about it, except that sometimes the composition of the oil has been tweaked to flatten the viscosity-temperature curve.

Note that SAE30 oil and SAE30W oil are not the same thing, as they are measured using different tests. Engines need oil that is thin enough for cold starts and thick enough when the engine is hot. Since oil gets thinner when heated and thicker when cooled, most of us use what are called multi-grade or multi-weight oils; these oils meet SAE specifications for the low temperature requirements of a light oil, and the high temperature requirements of a heavy oil. You'll hear them referred to as multi-viscosity, all-season or all-weather oils. An example is a 10W-30 which is commonly found in stores.

When choosing oil, one should always follow the manufacturer's recommendations, but if you're building your own engine, it's your own call. Which is why I seek advice. ;)

_ken :w
 
Ken said:
When choosing oil, one should always follow the manufacturer's recommendations, but if you're building your own engine, it's your own call. Which is why I seek advice. ;)

_ken :w

Doesn't the cap on stock Vette' engines say 5W-30? I swear that's what it says. But don't people recommend changing weights for engine age, driving conditions (cold weather, etc...)?
 
Thanks for the info Ken....very enlightening. I had no idea that was how it was done.:upthumbs
 
Hey Ken,

A "multiviscosity" oil is simply an oil that has been rated using both tests. Nothing magic about it, except that sometimes the composition of the oil has been tweaked to flatten the viscosity-temperature curve.

I understand the concept of viscosity as you mentioned.
What has allways confused me are the ads for Synthetic vs natural oils.
I think it was the original Mobil1 ads that showed how mobil1 flowed like water in a cold enviroment yet the regualr oil of the same viscosity rating was like tree sap.
Doesn't a 10w/30 flow at the same rate regaurdless of what it's formula?
I mean a 10/30 is a 10/30.

I understand the other extreme where they put the oil in a frying pan to show how regular oil breaks down with high heat.

Just don't get the cold weather ads ???
 
I'd run either Mobil 1 or Castrol SynTech for years. Mobil did not reply when I asked why my #7 bearing spun with their slippery oil.

I run Valvoline oil with 3000-5000 mile change intervals, always changing the filter, and filling it as much as possible before installing. This allows oil pressure upon start, sooner; a GOOD thing.

How many guys run 200-300,000 mles on Chevies with 'regular oil and frequent changes? I am not convinced that the synthetics are so much better than the 'old' oils. Part of the oil change function is to rid the oil of other bad chemicals, which accumulate more or less, depending upon your driving habits. Getting the oil hot for long enough vaporizes water and other crap in the crankcase. Is anyone really satisfied to go 25000 miles on synthetic, between changes? Do the math. 3-5k mile with regular oil vs maybe 10k with oil that costs 3-4 times as much?

Frequent changes=cheap insurance, IMHO.

Racing is not street driving, either. Draggers surely look for every last HP, which the thinner oils MAY deliver. Don't the pros rebuild the engine after each run? I like the 'cushion' effect of thicker oils and 10 weight is my personal minimum. I'd run straight 30 or 40 in SoCal if I could find it, while sticking with Valvoline. I doubt 10 weight would cause any problems in any clime. The thinner oils help CAFE, too.

An oil specialist told me that the particle size of the Teflon in Slick50 is larger than the pore size of any decent oil filter. Guess where the stuff is? I remember looking inside an old can of the stuff and seeing a glob of whatever, on the bottom. Nice!

The synthetics DO keep the oil passageways nice and clean. So do frequent changes.

:w
 
Re: Hey Ken,

Corvette-Pilot said:
I understand the concept of viscosity as you mentioned.
What has allways confused me are the ads for Synthetic vs natural oils.
I think it was the original Mobil1 ads that showed how mobil1 flowed like water in a cold enviroment yet the regualr oil of the same viscosity rating was like tree sap.
Doesn't a 10w/30 flow at the same rate regaurdless of what it's formula?
I mean a 10/30 is a 10/30.

I understand the other extreme where they put the oil in a frying pan to show how regular oil breaks down with high heat.

Just don't get the cold weather ads ???


those coldweather ads for Mobil 1 takes the temperature way below 0 degrees. They probably run it down to -50 or something like that to get that oil to look like that.
 
In my '95 with 20k, she gets 5w-30 Mobile 1, although a short time ago I read an article by a GM vette guru (can't remember the name), who only slightly inferred, with I'm sure, a slight smile on his face, that Mobile 1 is for folks that drive their late model vettes hard, and that uhhmm, maybe, just maybe, standard brand-name 5w-30 oil changed about every 3k would work just fine for a vette that is driven mildly... but he just wouldn't come out and say it! I wish to heck I could find that interview.

Anyway, in my experience GM 350's typically have crappy valve seals (not so sure about ring seal quality; but never experienced compression problems with several 350's with over 150k), contributing in premature gumming up of the valvetrain. With a GM 350 I would recommend the synthetic oil GM recommends (Mobile 1)..... and change it often.

In my beloved Bonne SSE, with 177,000 miles on her, I've always used the cheapest oil I can find that meets or exceeds GM min. recommendations, and changed oil at 3k and filter at 6k. She burns not a drop and looking at the valve train through the oil fill in the valve cover it appears as clean as when the engine had 5k on her. Maybe that's why the 3800cc GM got the proud designation of "venerable, but dated V6".

Regarding Slick 50, the only thing I've read is that, at worst, it will lighten your wallet and not measure up to advertising claims. I can no longer find this product on local automotive parts supply shelves. Wonder why!?

Ted
 
vettepilot said:
I use the 10W-30 wt Mobil 1, the owners manual says either the 5W-30 or 10W-30 is OK. I like the 10W-30 because the numbers are closer together, meaning less additives required to make the viscosity right.
Thanks to the digital oil press and temp readouts on the DIC, I could also see a minor increase in oil pressure at an idle as the temp got up into the 200+ area on the engine oil temp using the 10W-30 vs the 5W-30. Weight didn't seem to affect the way the temp rose, but did affect the way the pressure held at the upper end of the temps seen.
I had been using the AC PF44 filter, but recently changed to the Mobil 1 filter in my other car, and it seems quieter at initial start-up, will probably go to Mobil 1 in the Vette next change.
I stay away from those additives, they increase the operating cost, and I really don't think they increase the performance, or longevity of the engine parts. If you are already using a good grade of oil, GM Spec. or API SJ or better, then that's providing the protection needed. BTW, anything that adds suspended particles or claims it adheres to the engine parts like PFT (Teflon)... think about it, you are changing the clearances in the bearing areas, and the last thing you want to do to the cylinder walls is coat or glaze them.
Getting the oil hot from an extended drive, and changing the oil and filter at the recommended intervals does more for extending the engine life and reducing operating costs than anything else on the market. And isn't that what we all want in the end, a nice ride at a reasonable cost.
Enjoy your Vette, and have a nice day... I'm heading out the door on this nice sunny and WARM day for a drive in my Z right now.
vettepilot

Hey vettepilot,

How is going down there in Bama, Rucker country? Sure brings back memories to see Enterprise, AL. Talk to my old buddy there in Ozark every now and then. Have given some thought to retiring that way but not sure I would like Bama all year around :confused Got to change oil in the C-5 and wandering weather to switch over to this Mobil Oil Filter for synthetic oil makes sense but I've always been a stickler for OEM parts and service items.

Take care, and stay in touch,
Bill :w
 
PRESSURE is a measure of RESISTANCE to FLOW
thicker or higher viscosity oils tend to RESIST the flow thru smaller clearances untill they warm up and the viscosity tends to drop off.
as long as the oil pressure stays above about 20 psi at idle and below about 80psi your NORMAL and should have no problems, but THINNER viscosity oils pump faster and reach the parts faster on start up where much of an engines WEAR occures, WITH SYNTHETIC OILS,THICKER oils DON,T, provide a big increase in protection as the FILM STRENGTH is similar, remember the object is to prevent DIRRECT mechanical contact thru having a FILM of oil under pressure BETWEEN the moving surfaces, the oils viscosity has little effect AS LONG AS its sufficiant to form that barrier FILM, and ABSORB AND CARRY AWAY HEAT,DEBRIE,(CRUD) from the bearing surfaces. modern synthetics DON,T THIN OUT under heat to nearly the same extent as mineral base oils did so thinner 5w30 and 10w30 can protect parts as well or better than 10w40,20w50mineral base oils that thinned out under high heat conditions
keep in mind the CLEARANCE between moving parts determines in part the load rates the oil film can support, as an engine wears it tends to have increased clearances so the resistance to flow drops slowly with wear.
clearances2.jpg

clearances1.jpg

clearances3.jpg

if you want some further info, read thru these

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/tenmythsaboutsyntheticlubrication.htm
http://www.oil-tech.com/motoroil-comparison.htm
http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html


most comon question I get? "will a high volume oil pump help or hurt my engine?" followed by some guy saying
"If you're using a stock capacity pan, the high volume oil pump could actually suck out all the oil from the pan before it is drained back in, thus creating bad, bad problems"
absolutely proven false bye SMOKE YUNICK with HIGH SPEED PHOTOGRATPHY and CLEAR WINDOWS IN ROCKER COVERS AND OIL PANbut what can and does happen is the oil pump pickup can and does get mounted or moved too high or low in the oil pan,restricting access to the oil supply, sometimes the pickup comes loose or under hard acceleration or brakeing the oil in a non-baffled pan can rush away from the pickup under (G) forces, this is not pumping the pan dry, a baffled pan with a windage screen with the same oil supply volume would work perfectly
ok lets look at a few things, pressure is the result of a resistance to flow , no matter how much oil is put out by the oil pump there is almost no pressure unless there is a resistance to that oil flow and the main resistance is from oil trying to flow through the bearing surface clearances and once the pumps output pressure exceeds the engines ability to accept the oilflow at the max pressure the oil return system/bypass spring allows the oil circles back through the pump ,now the amount of oil flow necessary to reach the furthest parts in the engine from the oil pump does not go up in direct relation to rpm, but it instead increases with rpm at a steadly increaseing rate that increases faster than the engine rpm due to centrifugal force draining the oil from the rods as they swing faster and faster since energy increases with the square of the velocity the rate of oil use goes up quite a bit faster due to the greatly increased (G-FORCES) pulling oil from the rod bearings over 5000rpm going to 8000rpm than the rate of oil flow increases from 2000 rpm to 5000rpm (the same 3000rpm spread) and remember the often stated (10 lbs per 1000rpm)needs to be measured at the furthest rod and main bearing from the pump not at the pump itself, next lets look at the oil flow itself, you have about 5-6 quarts in an average small block now the valve covers never get and hold more than about 1/3 to 2/3 of a quart each even at 8000 rpm (high speed photography by SMOKEY YUNICK doing stock car engine research with clear plastic valve covers prove that from what Ive read) theres about 1 quart in the lifter gallery at max and theres about 1 quart in the filter and in the oil passages in the block, that leaves at least 2 quarts in the pan at all times and for those that want to tell me about oil wrapped around the crankshaft at high rpms try squirting oil on a spinning surface doing even 2000rpm (yes thats right its thrown off as fast as it hits by centrifugal force, yes its possiable for the crankshaft WITHOUT A WINDAGE SCREEN to keep acting like a propeler and pulling oil around with it in the crank case but thats what the wrap around style milodon type windage screen is designed to stop)the only way to run out of oil is to start with less than 4 quarts or to plug the oil return passages in the lifter gallery with sludge or gasket material! now add a good windage tray and a crank scrapper and almost all the oil is returned to the sump as it enters the area of the spinning crankshaft! forming a more or less endless supply to the oil pump, BTW almost all pro teams now use DRY SUMP SYSTEMS WITH POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT GERATOR PUMPS that are 3,4,or 5 stage pumps each section of which has more voluum than a standard voluum oil pump because its been found total oil control is necessary at high rpms to keep bearings cool and lubed

NOW I POSTED THIS BEFORE BUT IT NEEDs REPEATING
ok look at it this way,what your trying to do here is keep an pressureized oil film on the surface of all the bearings to lube and cool them and have enough oil spraying from the rod and main bearing clearances to lube the cam and cylinder walls/rings. now a standard pump does a good job up to 5000rpm and 400 hp but above 6000rpm and 400hp the bearings are under more stress and need more oilflow to cool and because the pressure on the bearings is greater you need higher pressures to maintain that oilfilm.lets look at the flow verus pressure curve. keep this in mind, good oil flow volume across the bearing surfaces to cool and luberacate them and to provide a boundry layer between the metal surfaces is more important than the pressure reached at all rpms. since oil is a liquid its non-compressable and flow will increase with rpm up to the point where the bypass circuit starts to re-route the excess flow at the point were the pressure exceeds the bypass spring pressure. but the voluum will be equal to the pumps sweep voluum times the rpm of the pump, since the high voluum pump has a sweep voluum 1.3-1.5 times the standard pump voluum it will push 1.3-1.5 times the voluum of oil up to the bypass cicuit cut in point,that means that since the engine bearings leakage rate increases faster as the rpms increase because the clearances don,t change but the bleed off rate does that the amount of oil and the pressure that it is under will increase faster and reach the bypass circuit pressure faster with the high voluum pump. the advantage here is that the metal parts MUST be floated on that oil film to keep the metal parts from touching/wearing and the more leakage points the oil flows by the less the voluum of oil thats available for each leakage point beyond it and as the oil heats up it becomes easier to push through the clearences.now as the rpms and cylinder preasures increase in your goal to add power the loads trying to squeeze that oil out of those clearances also increase. ALL mods that increase power either increase rpms,cylinder preasures or reduce friction or mechanical losses. there are many oil leakage points(100) in a standard chevy engine.
16 lifter to push rod points
16 pushrod to rocker arm points
32 lifter bores 16 x 2 ends
10 main bearing edges
9 cam bearing edges
16 rod bearing edges
2 distributor shaft leaks
1 distributor shaft to shim above the cam gear(some engines that have an oil pressure feed distributor shaft bearing.)
so the more oil voluum the better.chevy did an excelent job in the design but as the stresses increase the cooling voluum of the extra oil available from the larger pump helps to prevent lubracation delivery failure, do you need a better pump below 5000rpm or 400hp (hell no! at that level the stock pump works fine) above that level the extra oil will definitely helppossiable deficient oil flow and bearing cooling and a simple increase in pressure does not provide a big increase in voluum that may be necessary to keep that oil film in the correct places at the correct voluum at all times.the stock system was designed for a 265cid engine in a passenger car turning a max of about 6000 rpm but only haveing the stress of under 300hp transmitted to the bearings, Im sure the orriginal designers never thought that the sbc or bbc would someday be asked to on occasion hold up to 450-800hp and 6000-8000 rpm.nore did they forsee valvesprings that placed sometimes as much as 500lbs and up loads on the lifters and the use of over 9 to 1 compression ratios in the original design so the oil voluums and pressures necessary to cool those valve springs and bearings at those stress levels were never taken into account for that either , the stock pump works but was never designed for the loads and rpms that a modern engine hotrodded to over 450hp sees
the standard volume pump gears are about 1.2" long the high volume pump gears are about 1.5 inches long (depends on manufacturer)
heres the discriptions right from chevy
12555884
SBC Oil Pump, High Pressure Z28/LT1. Production high-pressure oil pump with 1.20" gears.Will produce 60-70 psi oil pressure. Does not include screen. The pickup tube dia. is 5/8" for this pump.
62.17

14044872
SBC Oil Pump, High-Volume. This high-volume pump has1.50" long gears.It has approximately 25% more capacity than a production pump at standard pressure. Does not include screen.

and yes I comonly build small blocks useing bbc oil pumps like the ls7 pump, it has 1.3" gears but they are bigger in dia. and have 12 not 7 teethlike the small block pumps (many standard sbc pickups use 5/8" dia. pickups) (the ls7 pump is best used on 8qt-9qt road racing oilpans as the larger 3/4" pickup flows lots of oil for extreme high rpm engines with a multi baffled pan useing windage screens, scrappers and cut outs for extreme (G) loads where a dry sump can,t be used or cost makes you stick to a wet sump pan. these LS7 pumps dont fit most sbc oil pans so your stuck using the high volume sbc oil pump if your not using a true racing 8-9 qt style oil pan in some cases

oilplug.jpg
 
hi there guys,
my l98 1991 vette engine has 167,000 miles on the clock!
wouldnt 10w-30 say for example be a bit thin for a engine with such high miles on it?
is penzoil a good brand of oil to use?, i am told penhzoil is u.s.a made?
i normally run 20w-50 oil in my engine, would i be loosing power due to thicker oil?
would a thicker oil like 20w-50 help seal rings better and help the older engine live on?

hope so one can help with these questions!
thanks
glen
sxyvet
australia
 
I run Mobil 1 10-30 in cars over 200k miles with no problems or oil presure drop. My driving is mostly if now all hardserface roads so I only change at 7000 to 9000 milesl, except the vette which gets changed once a yr because of less miles.

Glenn
:w
 
i must ask this question. don't we as vette lovers, become a little "anal" at times? this subject along with what carwax is best for our vettes has been discused over and over on forums. the manufacturers of these products will offer detailed test results to convince us to part with our money and provide their stockholders more reason to invest in more tests to convince us to part with or money yet again, at a higher price. i've used synthetic oil for years, but when i considered the fact that i was still changing my oil and filter every 3,000 mi. and literally pouring money down the drain, i decided to use conventional oil. i don't think my car can tell the difference. what about $5 car wax, or $10, or $25?
 
Very well said everyone! There is sure enough knowledge out there with-in the CAC Community that it boggles the mind. Sure appreiciate the replies back on this subject. I know there is a differance in preference out there on oil and filters, but everyone seems to over whelmingly use Mobile 1 Synthenic engine oil in their Vettes. You all are the BEST!


Thanks again,
Bill
 

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