Hypothetical VIN question

[IH2LOSE]

As some of you guys know I am in the market for a 1961/62 vette to do a restomod on on with a tube frame convertion.I was givien a out of state lead to a fellow who has a complete body only No frame or running gear.I contacted the fellow and asked if he had an interest in selling the body.He had ZERO intrest.But as all corvette folks we got to talking and I exspained my intended project and that I would be trying to sell my frame and running gear when I aquired the car.He had a intrest in purchasing the frame and running gear with a vin on it. He then exspained he has no vin with his body and would use the frames vin to create a legal car for him then later he would have vin plate made or go for a reassigned state title.

So now I am thinking I am definatley looking for a legal car and I would keep the body and its vin and sell off the frame to offsets some cost's and hopefully some one with a useless frame could bring another car back to life.But now I am afraid what if I do sell my frame with the vin on it and somebody does what this fellow proposed ,the there would be 2 vettes with the same vin and what if 20 years from now they end up in the same state how would I exspain and prove that my car was the correct car with a legal vin or could I afford to prove this,

This is a project I plan to go ahead with and to protect my car when I sell of the frame to I grind off the vin(isnt that illegal) do I cut it out with a tourch and attach it to my new tube frame?
It may seem crazy to think of such a thing but now its a concern that I had never even thought of untill that phone conversation

 

[LEEJANDZ]

IH2LOSE --- I am afraid what if I do sell my frame with the vin on it and somebody does what this fellow proposed ,the there would be 2 vettes with the same vin and what if 20 years from now they end up in the same state how would I exspain and prove that my car was the correct car with a legal vin or could I afford to prove this,

What state are you in???

 

[IH2LOSE]

NEW YORK

 

[LEEJANDZ]

Send me a PM and I will brake down the steps you need to take

 

[58Mike]

FWIW, I don't think you're crazy to be thinking about this. I don't know either way whether you'd have a problem or not, but an ounce of prevention...

- Mike Greene

 

[offshore]

Send me a PM and I will brake down the steps you need to take

I'd like to know the answer to that too.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Your VIN plate on a 61/62 is spot welded to the top of the steering column mast jacket. You won't be using this column on your tube frame and the only other place you will find a vin is on top of the old frame rails. So when you assemble your new car you will be putting together a new frame with a non-serial numbered body. I would think that New York and anywhere else would only title this car as an assembled vehicle. I would be suprised if they allow you to remove the vin plate off the steering column and attach it to your new car someplace. You will most likely be assigned a new state issued vin plate for your car.

If you sell your chassis with steering column to that guy bump up your price to include the title as the only parts that the title matches are the frame and steering column jacket mounted VIN plate.

If you use a '59 or older body the VIN is on the body and you can keep the title as is.

Tom

 

[LEEJANDZ]

HOW TO: keep your VIN

This information is based on CA law, but should be somewhat applicable to all 50 states.

Assuming that you want to keep your VIN and not get a special VIN for a "rebuilt" or specialty constructed vehicle (ie FFR SHELBY COBRA)

(FYI --- The COBRA is a special case. FFR sells a SHELBY COBRA kit car that is based on a 88-93 5.0 mustang. Some of the people who build these cars have them titled as a 88-93 mustang. Then there are those who get the BAR (bureau of Automotive Repair) to give them a new VIN. Either way is legal)

Whether you buy a 61 or 62 you will get a VIN for that car. If you change the frame, it is still the same car.

Before I write a million more words... let me get one thing straight...

Do you want to keep the original VIN???

 

[Mac]

In most states and/or provinces, there is a process to register vehicles with a replacement VIN where VINs are in question (ie: rebuilt wrecks, stolen vehicles where VINs were modified or removed, modified vehicles, etc.) which usually involves the issue of a new VIN plate.

As for removing the VIN to protect yourself, I'm not sure what purpose this would serve and it might be illegal, depending on the laws in your state.

I would say that if you're concerned about what the guy intends to do, make sure you prepare a sales agreement which says exactly what you sold him (frame only) then you'll be okay. If this guy wants to put your frame and his body together and he intends to register the vehicle as original under your frame's VIN (which could be construed as Fraud) he would need you to sign over the vehicle registration, transfering title into his name.

If you intend to register your resto-rod under the old VIN, you'll need to maintain title. It may not be possible to do so because of the modifications but that's something you're going to have to figure out by consulting your DMV but some states allow you to stamp your old VIN onto the new frame, so it's worth checking out. If your state does not allow this and there's a process to secure a replacement VIN, maintaining title doesn't make much difference but if you are concerned about the frame buyer's intentions, I would still make out a complete sales agreement, saying that he is buying car parts only, rather than buying a complete car.

 

[IH2LOSE]

Re: HOW TO: keep your VIN

Do you want to keep the original VIN???

[/B]

Absolutely want to be legal and keep the vin!

 

[IH2LOSE]

Mac thank you for the input

I am not going to do buisness with the fellow out of state.

But I assumed that there was a body vin on the 61/62 that would stay in tack with the body.As reading above I know know its on the steering collum. witch some how I now know I have to retain.On the frame I would rather cut it up into peices thinking that some one could clone my restomods car vin. In the united states Its real simple (Just got to pay some dollars )to aquire a legal title in your name from a vin number (as in abanded vehicle)
The last thing I would want is to have a ton of money in my car and then 10 or 20 years from now to be suprised by this. Or when I leave this place is to have my family have to deal with this.I we all know its difficult to trace a cars history over centuries and I am sure this out of state fellow when he trys to sell his car he will not be exspaining that he owned the body with no vin or title for the last 15 years and just came upon a frame with a vin and new title and now has an almost legal car.I am sure he would be exsplaining how the values of these cars keep going up.

I am happy I got to speak to this fellow to understand what ccould of happened if I had not gotten an education on this.I have found out today you can not alter or remove the identification number from a car or even car parts So my only legal course would be to destroy the entire frame.
Lets say I the vin off the frame and sell the frame I have no way of proving the frame was actually mine because it has no identification on it.

Thanks again to every one for there input. In no way am I a rich person who could afford to throw out that money (selling the frame I did not need) But I also can not afford the trouble latter on So its cheap insurance to destroy the frame.

 

[IH2LOSE]

PS on those kit cars its a heck of alot of work to get them inspected to be aproved as a kit car.I have a freind in law enfoursement that had to show every recipt for every part on his kit car. He finally gave up and purchased a title for a mustang to get the car on the road and he was done.

I DO NOT WANT TO GO THE KIT CAR ROUTE I am purchasing a legal vette and am only putting a tube frame under it

 

[58Mike]

I wouldn't destroy the frame. If you get a contract like Mac described, I would think you're safe. Even if that guy or some later guy registered his car based on your frame's VIN, and now there are two cars with the same VIN, I don't see that it would matter. It's not like THAT will be holding you back from a Top-Flight award.

And even if legal problems did ensue, you're the one with the contract that says you're in the right. Heck, if you really want to be safe, sell it to me for $500 rather than cut it up and trash it. I'll need to grind out that rust area where the VIN is stamped, of course!

- Mike Greene

 

[Mac]

And even if legal problems did ensue, you're the one with the contract that says you're in the right. Heck, if you really want to be safe, sell it to me for $500 rather than cut it up and trash it. I'll need to grind out that rust area where the VIN is stamped, of course!

- Mike Greene

Excellent point, Mike. I didn't think of it in those terms. You might need to do some welding in that area, just to be sure it's solid, right?

Don't cut it up, Larry- there are few enough original drivetrains around and if you take steps to ensure the frame VIN can't be reused, that'll ensure that whoever buys it doesn't cause problems. Besides, if that person plants your frame under his body, it'll be HIS body VIN that needs to be addressed, not your frame VIN, which makes it HIS problem.

 

[IH2LOSE]

Mac I have raised my buy in on the car.Because I figured what ever I purchased I would sell off the running gear,frame,motor,tran,steering colum every thing interiur,I just want a great body and glass and bumpers,nothing I want to keep has an identafication number on it so who ever gets the running gear would actually have the majority of whats considered the legal car. It would kill me to destroy the frame but I must protect myself.I have to do more investigating to figure this out.If you see the prices these restomod cars are going for you will understand why I want to make sure I have no problems.

Thanks again for the information I am going to contact NYS motor vehicles to see what they say.

 

[MidShark]

Frames are bought and sold everyday. Why not call somebody who deals in them and ask some questions about your concerns? I'd also say that before you get too worked up over a hypothetical situation, what are the chances that the VIN on the frame will even be readable on a 41-42 year old car? It might be a moot point.

Dick

 

[IH2LOSE]

[VIN on the frame will even be readable on a 41-42 year old car? It might be a moot point.

Dick [/B]

The one on my 1966 is clear as a bell but you may bee correct,and it may not even be a concern what really got me to worry was this fellow with the body exsplaining how he wanted the frame with a vin and he had no concern that I was retaining title to the car.

 

[MidShark]

Well, to go a step farther, then, I don't see why it would be a problem to grind off the serial # and sell the frame. You are doing so to prevent any fraud or misrepresentation. Engine rebuilders do it every time they deck a block, and I've yet to see one of them led away in handcuffs. (Although maybe there's a few of them that should be!) :L

Dick

 

[Tom Bryant]

I can't recommend using the stock steering gear and column in a car like you are contemplating in good conscience. If it's a restoration that's one thing but a custom chassis like you will be using requires a modern steering arrangement.

A word about the old steering columns. Imagine sitting in the driver seat with a nearly horizonal 6 foot long steel shaft attached to the front of your car and pointing right at the middle of your chest. Now imagine crashing into something with the left front of your car. Scarey huh? Many a Corvette and other old car owner have been skewered by the steering column. That's why collapsible columns were invented in the early '70s. We lost a good NCRS member just a year or so ago just this way while he was out for an evening cruise in his solid axle.

I have been giving a lot of thought over the last couple years on how to modify the '53-'62 steering column to incorporate a collapsing feature that would be nearly undetectable and I think I am on to a rather easy modification. I just need some time to work it out.

I don't know what steering that tube frame uses but I would think that with a little work you could use the old jacket to cover the steering shaft where it comes out of the firewall down to the u-joint/coupler.

This way you would not be removing the serial number plate from the original location and it would be right where it is supposed to be if anyone of authority would need to see it.

Tom

 

[Duntov-097]

You can use the original column tube. Just cut it down so you can use the part with the VIN plate on it. I used the original shaft at the top into Borgeson joints and shafts with a damper down to the rack. Just get a good bearing for each end of the tube. This setup is also collapsable so I don't get impaled. Been there and done that OUCH !
I am also building a column similar for my other 57

I have sold many frames with no problems. I do understand your concerns and will make sure there are no #'s on the next one I sell.