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New intake for crossfire = more HP!!!!

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Thanks to Yoda for bringing that issue back to the forefront of this discussion.

That offer, as stated early in this thread, still stands.

DCS beat you to it, Super Chevy is doing a write up on this new intake as we speak or type what ever you want to call it. Sorry Hib, you snooze you lose. You don't get a renegade, no don't get to write an article and you don't get paid.:boogie

Now what do you have to contribute to this thread.;shrug

Your bro nelson84.:thumb
 
DCS beat you to it, Super Chevy is doing a write up on this new intake as we speak or type what ever you want to call it. Sorry Hib, you snooze you lose. You don't get a renegade, no don't get to write an article and you don't get paid.:boogie

Now what do you have to contribute to this thread.;shrug

Your bro nelson84.:thumb

Now now, Nelson.

Maybe I'm wrong... but I hardly doubt an article on the Renegade would bring anyone a lot of money. It's not like this is his chance to break the first photos of the C7. ;)

With that said... I personally don't care what Super Chevy writes about a "new" product. Dyno numbers are (sometimes) great when they come from the manufacturer- but I'm more interested in what it does/needs in the real world. It needs to be an honest third party view. Such as, how much of a tune will the ECM need in order to use its new found airflow (if any).

Nelson- perhaps you'd do a technical article for the CAC on your experience with your Renegade. Not like "these are the 12 bolts that attach it to the heads" but one that includes ECM tuning, a before and after dyno, as well as a complete break down of total costs (tuning, any additional parts, etc) to horsepower. Really put it into perspective, ya know.:thumb

Otherwise...
catbert said:
Let's see - you're sayin that over 200 posts on the merits something that none of us has seen is silly? If we had facts, what would we argue about?:boogie This is like theoretical bench racing.
...is still kinda valid. ;)
 
DCS beat you to it, Super Chevy is doing a write up on this new intake as we speak or type what ever you want to call it. Sorry Hib, you snooze you lose. You don't get a renegade, no don't get to write an article and you don't get paid.:boogie

Now what do you have to contribute to this thread.;shrug

Your bro nelson84.:thumb

(sigh)
Beam me up, Scotty. There's no intelligent life, here.
 
Plenum Volume

I have a question for you Hib. I have read the ideal plenum is one that has the same volume as the engine has in cubic inches. Which means a 350" engine should have 350 cubic inches of plenum volume. Do you know if that's really true? What effect does the plenum volume have on an engine's breathing? It seems to me the larger the plenum volume is, the more fuel is going to drop out of suspension. Can you enlighten me?
 
That formula seems way off. 350 cubic inches then computes to over 7" x 7" x 7". I ran a single plane holley manifold on my 400 CI mopar (650 cfm carb) that had 5500 rpm shift points and the plenum volume was not even as big as this formula computes for a 350. We are talking about a plenum area for atomized fuel, not like the plenum on a TPI that is just air (before injectors). I agree with your comment that a plenum too big will cause atomization issues. I never liked the drivability of the single plane manifold under 1500 RPMs. I'm not sure what the plenum volume is on a stock L83, but if a 350 block is 15% larger than a 305 block, then GM should of made a tailored 350 intake that allowed around 15% more CFMs to flow. GM should of applied the same logic with the TPIs as well.
 
That formula seems way off. 350 cubic inches then computes to over 7" x 7" x 7". I ran a single plane holley manifold on my 400 CI mopar (650 cfm carb) that had 5500 rpm shift points and the plenum volume was not even as big as this formula computes for a 350. We are talking about a plenum area for atomized fuel, not like the plenum on a TPI that is just air (before injectors). I agree with your comment that a plenum too big will cause atomization issues. I never liked the drivability of the single plane manifold under 1500 RPMs. I'm not sure what the plenum volume is on a stock L83, but if a 350 block is 15% larger than a 305 block, then GM should of made a tailored 350 intake that allowed around 15% more CFMs to flow. GM should of applied the same logic with the TPIs as well.


You didn't answer my question. What effect does the plenum have and how big should it be?
 
I sure don't remember hearing of any general formulas for manifolds at all. :upthumbs As to the one for one with displacement - that sounds waaaaay too easy.
 
I sure don't remember hearing of any general formulas for manifolds at all. :upthumbs As to the one for one with displacement - that sounds waaaaay too easy.


Gees, you STILL haven't answered my question. What effect does the plenum have? People often put 1" tall spacers under their carburators to increase the plenum volume so there MUST be something to it. So will somebody PLEASE do some research and find out the what's and why's about plenums?
 
Gees, you STILL haven't answered my question. What effect does the plenum have? People often put 1" tall spacers under their carburators to increase the plenum volume so there MUST be something to it. So will somebody PLEASE do some research and find out the what's and why's about plenums?

I wasn't trying to answer your question. Do your own research.
 
Plenums are common to ALL gas engines BECAUSE natural aspiration dictates that a vacume be present between the air regulating device and the piston crown. because the effect is delayed,.ie piston must move to draw in air, a vac is created. That is managed and stored in the plenum chamber. because the air charge is so far away from the piston it actually breaths in "waves". What is drawn in won't actually make it to a cylinder until the next cycle, or 2 even. Plenums are calculated storage closets. Too big and there won;t be sufficient vac to move the air with any velocity. Too small and all there will be is vac and no air.Thats do-able IF the wave design allows a 1st wave intake. Thats typically a higher rpm type engine since there won't be much vac to accellerate the air to assist low end. Vac is your best friend in a naturally aspirated gas engine. get a charger and who cares? it suddenly becomes positive air charge instead of a vac. Knowing this, tells us how fragile the design of intake manifolds, runner length (critical) and baseplates really are. These spacer plates or blocks effect the air right behind the metering device and alter the behavior of the air charge right there. Its not really an effect of the plenum size. Its where the spacer is behind the butterflys...
So when a spacer block is used in throttle body AND carb engines, all that is doing is making it a wee bit harder to draw that next pulse inside, which accellerates the airflow to some degree. BUT< what is gained from that trick is always lost elsewhere in the powerband. It usually bumps low end pulling power and steals that from the top end where the increased vac becomes a liability. Like your stock crossfire intake.
The bottom line with MOST street mods.....Few people actually generate more power from their well designed engine with millions of man-hrs of R&D....they simply change where the power is in that motors physical RPM range. If you want more power you have to built it as a matched set of componants, calculated to work efficiently with each other.
Remember, even IF you assist the breathing at the upper end, you;re STILL limited by the mechanical ability of the engine. Valve float, spring rates..etc.
 
PS.

google "plenum Chamber".

Definition:

A chamber, located between the throttle body and the runners of an intake manifold, used to distribute the intake charge evenly and to enhance engine breathing.
 
Plenums are common to ALL gas engines BECAUSE natural aspiration dictates that a vacume be present between the air regulating device and the piston crown. because the effect is delayed,.ie piston must move to draw in air, a vac is created. That is managed and stored in the plenum chamber. because the air charge is so far away from the piston it actually breaths in "waves". What is drawn in won't actually make it to a cylinder until the next cycle, or 2 even. Plenums are calculated storage closets. Too big and there won;t be sufficient vac to move the air with any velocity. Too small and all there will be is vac and no air.Thats do-able IF the wave design allows a 1st wave intake. Thats typically a higher rpm type engine since there won't be much vac to accellerate the air to assist low end. Vac is your best friend in a naturally aspirated gas engine. get a charger and who cares? it suddenly becomes positive air charge instead of a vac. Knowing this, tells us how fragile the design of intake manifolds, runner length (critical) and baseplates really are. These spacer plates or blocks effect the air right behind the metering device and alter the behavior of the air charge right there. Its not really an effect of the plenum size. Its where the spacer is behind the butterflys...
So when a spacer block is used in throttle body AND carb engines, all that is doing is making it a wee bit harder to draw that next pulse inside, which accellerates the airflow to some degree. BUT< what is gained from that trick is always lost elsewhere in the powerband. It usually bumps low end pulling power and steals that from the top end where the increased vac becomes a liability. Like your stock crossfire intake.
The bottom line with MOST street mods.....Few people actually generate more power from their well designed engine with millions of man-hrs of R&D....they simply change where the power is in that motors physical RPM range. If you want more power you have to built it as a matched set of componants, calculated to work efficiently with each other.
Remember, even IF you assist the breathing at the upper end, you;re STILL limited by the mechanical ability of the engine. Valve float, spring rates..etc.


Thank you very much for the detailed description of a plenum. So does a plenum need to be tuned for a certain rpm range? And back to my original question. Does the engine's cubic inches have anything to do with sizing a plenum? Is there a rule of thumb you know of? Do you remember the four twos that were popular on sbc's a long time ago? The individual 2-barrel carbs mounted right over the head's inlet ports and so those manifolds had virtually NO plenums. But yet they made BIG horsepower at high rpm. Does a large plenum benefit low rpm running or high rpm running?
 
YW,
I am NOT an automotive engineer, but I have seen and attempted to work with the very complex calculations involved....and lemme tell ya, EVERYTHING is involved...
Cam profile, timing, volumetric efficiency (intakes etc) exhaust design...combustion chamber shape and where in that, the spark plug sits.....flame path.
it ALL has an effect on the other. Just the equasion for a genuine exhaust header is more math than most people are capable of doing correctly. I've seen it, tried to use it, and got lost. I learned to trust engineering and beware of marketing.
In the physical world, as much as we know what should be, we have to understand that it sometimes simply is'nt. Thats the best way that I can describe how the aspiration of a gas engine works. Increase runner length and you WILL gain stump pulling low end torque. Shorten runner length and you enable the engine to breath at the faster cycle rate (hi-rpm).You don;t get both. Compromise is the art of balance.
Plenums have limits as they are the byproduct of the engine displacement to a large degree. The best thing to do to a plenum is to make it efficient by grinding away casting ridges and rough edges inside the runner ports. Polishing is kind of a myth in gas engines. There is a "boundry layer" that hugs the surface of all the intake parts whether it be silky smooth or rough as a cobb. "Porting" just works to increase the efficiency of the passage, not demanding it to be smooth. One secret to efficiency is equal volume in runners and ports. CC'ing heads is well known. CC'ing intakes is what pro's do. When all cylinders are treated equally, the crankshaft is the benificiary. One cyl stronger than the remaining also means that there are 7 that are weaker than 1.

Yes, I remember many of the old carbed motors with multiple carbs....BUT, we accepted horrible fuel/air ratios back then and those old motors had very different cam profiles that were not the least bit concerned with the exhaust gas being full of unburned fuel during much of the rpm band. Heck, add a few % more fuel to your existing air and you;ll see some dramatic power increases. You;ll also see another motor thats ready for complete overhaul at 100,000 miles instead of the 200,000+ that we get now because of precision fuel/air management....
Extra gasoline washes the lubrication off internal parts, like cyl walls. It makes more power, but its de-lubing the motor at the same time. Poor trade off at $3 a gallon and the cost of rebuilding.
If you ever get the chance, look at something like a a Ferrarri and one carb per cyl. But, it also has radically different intake design with valves nearly as big as the piston, and other extremely different engine parameters. They design for pure power and its usually ALL upper rpm range. A motor like that will load up and foul the plugs under 6000 rpm....its only efficient when its screaming, unlike more common designs made to be more user friendly and work at a wider range of rpm.
I learned engine theory from 2 strokes in MX bikes and some drag bikes many yrs ago that would spin 12,000 rpm stock but only had usable power in a window of about 2000 rpm.. WHen I got into cars and big 4 strokes it was no longer about rpm, but things like engine mass, internal weight, etc.... 4 strokes are much more complex because of more moving parts. In a 2 stroke it was 100% wave efficiency and that had help with the way a 2 stroke works and the dual action of its pistons.
Strangest thing I saw was an inline 6 with a big trashcan size 4bbl sitting on the side of the block. Factory Pontiac Firebird.
Hope this helps....its the extent of my knowledge !
 
YW,
I am NOT an automotive engineer, but I have seen and attempted to work with the very complex calculations involved....and lemme tell ya, EVERYTHING is involved...
Cam profile, timing, volumetric efficiency (intakes etc) exhaust design...combustion chamber shape and where in that, the spark plug sits.....flame path.
it ALL has an effect on the other. Just the equasion for a genuine exhaust header is more math than most people are capable of doing correctly. I've seen it, tried to use it, and got lost. I learned to trust engineering and beware of marketing.
In the physical world, as much as we know what should be, we have to understand that it sometimes simply is'nt. Thats the best way that I can describe how the aspiration of a gas engine works. Increase runner length and you WILL gain stump pulling low end torque. Shorten runner length and you enable the engine to breath at the faster cycle rate (hi-rpm).You don;t get both. Compromise is the art of balance.
Plenums have limits as they are the byproduct of the engine displacement to a large degree. The best thing to do to a plenum is to make it efficient by grinding away casting ridges and rough edges inside the runner ports. Polishing is kind of a myth in gas engines. There is a "boundry layer" that hugs the surface of all the intake parts whether it be silky smooth or rough as a cobb. "Porting" just works to increase the efficiency of the passage, not demanding it to be smooth. One secret to efficiency is equal volume in runners and ports. CC'ing heads is well known. CC'ing intakes is what pro's do. When all cylinders are treated equally, the crankshaft is the benificiary. One cyl stronger than the remaining also means that there are 7 that are weaker than 1.

Yes, I remember many of the old carbed motors with multiple carbs....BUT, we accepted horrible fuel/air ratios back then and those old motors had very different cam profiles that were not the least bit concerned with the exhaust gas being full of unburned fuel during much of the rpm band. Heck, add a few % more fuel to your existing air and you;ll see some dramatic power increases. You;ll also see another motor thats ready for complete overhaul at 100,000 miles instead of the 200,000+ that we get now because of precision fuel/air management....
Extra gasoline washes the lubrication off internal parts, like cyl walls. It makes more power, but its de-lubing the motor at the same time. Poor trade off at $3 a gallon and the cost of rebuilding.
If you ever get the chance, look at something like a a Ferrarri and one carb per cyl. But, it also has radically different intake design with valves nearly as big as the piston, and other extremely different engine parameters. They design for pure power and its usually ALL upper rpm range. A motor like that will load up and foul the plugs under 6000 rpm....its only efficient when its screaming, unlike more common designs made to be more user friendly and work at a wider range of rpm.
I learned engine theory from 2 strokes in MX bikes and some drag bikes many yrs ago that would spin 12,000 rpm stock but only had usable power in a window of about 2000 rpm.. WHen I got into cars and big 4 strokes it was no longer about rpm, but things like engine mass, internal weight, etc.... 4 strokes are much more complex because of more moving parts. In a 2 stroke it was 100% wave efficiency and that had help with the way a 2 stroke works and the dual action of its pistons.
Strangest thing I saw was an inline 6 with a big trashcan size 4bbl sitting on the side of the block. Factory Pontiac Firebird.
Hope this helps....its the extent of my knowledge !


I remember very clearly the four two's produced a LOT of horsepower at high rpm. But due to no cylinder "packing", they lost low end torque. Then I also remember the late '50's 383's that had super long runners that were so long the carbs sat over the valve covers. The super long runners gave way to the curved 17" long runners used on the TPI cars. But then the LT1's used rather short stubby runners and made more power. So I wonder what the answer really is. Long or short? Big diameter or little diameter? One thing I DO know is wet manifolds need to have straight runners to keep the fuel from separating from the air. The Renegade has almost straight runners that are about 7" long (at the top). So it seems like it's about the best wet manifold there is. And the Renegade also has a 20% taper in the runners; increasing the air/fuel velocity as it progresses toward the intake valve. And with the additional cross section comes runner volume; the Renegade having roughly double that of a Crossfire.
 
Thats where "boundry layer" comes into play. The semi rough surface of an intake helps maintain the fuel & air mixing. Make it too smooth and you give away some efficiency. I remember when it was a HUGE deal to have polished heads and intake....then someone noticed that many of these engines with only polishing actually performed worse. It was other mods that were generating more HP,. and after a few yrs of "field research" the whole craze over polishing the inside of heads was dropped...Now the polish goes on the outside.

Whats the effective combo for intake/runners length and diameter? Compromise. Knowing that the powerband is generally split 3 ways, low, mid-range and top end, we CAN take all from 2 areas and pack that into one. BUT< thats not a very drivable engine. We can also generate a great deal of Top End HP, like a new ZR-1 does and live off the residual low end power. Because the overall available HP has been increased, we can then afford to "borrow" from the low end and still have enough to keep a civil amount of street drivability.
I look at most any add-on performance power like a bank loan...Its not really mine, I just borrowed it, and I know I'll be givin it back at some point...
Usually top end where we just don't go on the street. I cannot remember the last time I red-lined my engine and it was balanced and good to 6500 and It's been there.. I have a nice tire spin into 2nd gear and a chirp at 3rd once in a great while(auto) and I can back out before 5000 and still have fun....and keep my nice L-98 motor in one piece, unlike the previous one. lessons learned. But, like everyone else I am still hungry for more. I could sell a kidney and scrape and hock my soul for a ZR-1...but I'd rather build something myself and be able to say that I did. I have to admit that I've been thinking of buying a block and building a bigger badder better L-98 motor. I know that its gonna take lots of research and work to really get what I'm looking for. Thankfully there are no secrets in engine design. I can use currect technology as a guide.

Good luck with your project. I'm not and never was opposed to this renegade, I am just a horrible skeptic and work with a business sense and wonder, with an engine series thats slowly going away, and knowing the goal of ANY business is to generate revenues...CASH, is there possibly enough sales even IF everybody bought one? and at the rate they are coming out, there may not be many cars left to try! For all the aggrevation, a chevy crate motor with some forged inerds and a small paxtom would solve all yer problems...lol
I know a guy thats done it. FAA wants him to get his pilots license for his 86 vette since it broke 200.
 
Thats where "boundry layer" comes into play. The semi rough surface of an intake helps maintain the fuel & air mixing. Make it too smooth and you give away some efficiency. I remember when it was a HUGE deal to have polished heads and intake....then someone noticed that many of these engines with only polishing actually performed worse. It was other mods that were generating more HP,. and after a few yrs of "field research" the whole craze over polishing the inside of heads was dropped...Now the polish goes on the outside.

Whats the effective combo for intake/runners length and diameter? Compromise. Knowing that the powerband is generally split 3 ways, low, mid-range and top end, we CAN take all from 2 areas and pack that into one. BUT< thats not a very drivable engine. We can also generate a great deal of Top End HP, like a new ZR-1 does and live off the residual low end power. Because the overall available HP has been increased, we can then afford to "borrow" from the low end and still have enough to keep a civil amount of street drivability.
I look at most any add-on performance power like a bank loan...Its not really mine, I just borrowed it, and I know I'll be givin it back at some point...
Usually top end where we just don't go on the street. I cannot remember the last time I red-lined my engine and it was balanced and good to 6500 and It's been there.. I have a nice tire spin into 2nd gear and a chirp at 3rd once in a great while(auto) and I can back out before 5000 and still have fun....and keep my nice L-98 motor in one piece, unlike the previous one. lessons learned. But, like everyone else I am still hungry for more. I could sell a kidney and scrape and hock my soul for a ZR-1...but I'd rather build something myself and be able to say that I did. I have to admit that I've been thinking of buying a block and building a bigger badder better L-98 motor. I know that its gonna take lots of research and work to really get what I'm looking for. Thankfully there are no secrets in engine design. I can use currect technology as a guide.

Good luck with your project. I'm not and never was opposed to this renegade, I am just a horrible skeptic and work with a business sense and wonder, with an engine series thats slowly going away, and knowing the goal of ANY business is to generate revenues...CASH, is there possibly enough sales even IF everybody bought one? and at the rate they are coming out, there may not be many cars left to try! For all the aggrevation, a chevy crate motor with some forged inerds and a small paxtom would solve all yer problems...lol
I know a guy thats done it. FAA wants him to get his pilots license for his 86 vette since it broke 200.


My problem is I live in California where it's illegal to change over to another type of intake manifold. The Renegade looks just like a Crossfire so it'll draw no attention from my smog tech. So either I port my Crossfire or I put a Renegade on. I'm going to try the Renegade and I'm quite sure my smog tech won't notice. And as I live in a remote area, my '82 only gets the sniffer test; no rollers.
 
Do chicks dig the new renegade intake manifold? I know my wife can't wait for me to get it so I will not be on these forums so much. But she doesn't know that I have to post my SOTP dyno numbers. It is going to take a while to work the car over to get some raw data.

Any ladies buy the renegade?
 
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