Now She Wont Start!!!

[Macgyver]

Been doing some researching and talking to some people and I still cant seem to get her to start. Mike (Stingray6974) has been helping me try and tackle this thing here. I took out all the emissions stuff and the AC adn threw on the Edelebrock Performer and Holley 4150. Now that everythings back together she wont start.

I cranked the engine until I could slide a 6inch screwdriver into the the #1 cylinder head and the rotor was pointing at the 1 o'clock on the cap so I wired everything according to that 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. The way the ignition wires were run it was absolutely impossible for the right wires to be set in the right firing order! But thats another story that I have nothing to do w/.

So rotor is pointing to one and everything is wired in the correct order now but she still has the same symptoms. I pulled the one wire and layed it against the frame w/ a screwdriver in it and checked to see if theres a spark. When cranking it there isnt a spark but when I turn the key to the off position there is a little one. Before I rewired her there was a plume of gas out the top off the carb when I turned it to the off position but now theres not and gas runs out the top of the Holley!!!

Is it possible that Im 180 degrees out? Even when the rotors pointing to the right spot? Everything ran great right before all of this and now somethings missing. Anyone have any suggestions?

Steve

 

[brusso]

Just a shot in the dark, but it sounds like there is now power to the dist while cranking. That one quick sparn that you get, when rolling the key back, indicates that. You could test for batt at the dist with the key on then while cranking to prove this. Best of luck. The good weather is coming soon!!!!!

 

[96lt4conv]

Steve,

The easiest way I've found to locate the top of the compression stroke (for stabbing the distributor) is to lightly stuff the end of a rag into the spark plug hole on the number one cylinder. Bump the starter until the compression blows the rag out (it will make apopping sound, there's no mistaking it). Afterward you will know for sure whether you were 180 degrees off or not. I imagine there are those out there who are An_l retentive enough to say the particles in the rag could get in the cylinder and wreak havoc, all I am saying is to push the rag into the plug hole, not clear into the cylinder. I have done this hundreds of times, it works wonderfully. If you do not have your valve covers on, skip the rag and watch the valves - after the intake closes continue rotating crank until the piston is at top dead center.

Also - you do not have to be 180 off for it not to start - it could just be on cog.

Scott

 

[Macgyver]

Ok my buddy came over and when rotated it and still nothing!!! But Im getting closer to the answer!

Brusso, that sweet "Topless V-8" weather is already here for me in Texas which is why Im hell bent on this thing right now. ive been dragging my feet for 3weeks cause of the rain.

What Ive done is check power and I have a current checker and it shows power to the battery wire on the distrib. I rotated the distrib 180 and now theres now little zip to the wire on the off key turn so Im going to put it back 180. Scott I will try that right now thanks. BTW whats cog?

My question is though w/ power to the distrib and no spark, does that mean a bad coil or what? And wheres the coil on an HEI (81')?

 

[96lt4conv]

Steve,

I mistyped - it could be off one cog. If the crank is not rotated enough OR is rotated too much the distributor gear could be off one cog. The easiest way to check this is to turn the distributor one way and then the other while trying to start. You can just about make up for one cog by turning the distributor. However, very difficult to keep running this way. This procedure will alert you to which way you are off - correct the distributor position and try again.

Scott

 

[Robin7TFour]

MAC, assuming you have voltage to the dist,under the cap you have a coil on top ,a rotor ,then on the plate you have a module and a pick-up unit. with the cap off rmove the rotor ,look for a black(or gray) burn spot on the underside. also you can remove the cover on the dist cap to see theo coil. if there are discolorations on the side of the coil,it's bad.
if neither, of those show any problems and you have power to the dist, then move on to the module and pick-up.
also, if you don't have any maintenance records,then you should consider changing all pieces anyway. they have been in there for many years and will fail eventually.

my 02
ROBIN

 

[Macgyver]

Scott, does it really even matter how you put in the distrib, as long as you get the #1 piston at the top than wherever the rotors pointing should be where the #1 wire goes and so on right?

Thanks Robin Ill check that now.

If a floats working properly and the pin that it pivots on then it should be able to stop the flow of gas coming from the pump right, assuming its the same stock pressure?

 

[96lt4conv]

Well......

Yes and no. If #1 is at the top of the exhaust stroke then you will be off 180. However, if the piston is indeed at TDC then no it really doesn't matter except that some wires may be too short. It is far better though to try and put it where it goes.

Scott

 

[Macgyver]

Is there a reference mark on the distributor cause now I have no idea which way it goes. But the #1 pistons up. The rag did pop out earlier though. Say the number 1 isup on the Exhaust stroke right now. Will the rotor spin full circle twice before its back at the exhaust stroke or once?

 

[atmmac]

why did you pull out your distributor. If you went to one of those pointless kits then thats the problem. I had the same exact thing on my impala. The firing was messed up badly from that cheap thing. Went to an HEI and never been happier.

Good Luck
-Andy

 

[Macgyver]

I pulled the distrib to put on the new intake.

 

[brusso]

one rev of the crank is 1/2 rev of cam/dist. So that would be 1/2 rev of rotor or 180 deg. I think?

 

[rgtrough]

Dist. position

Hey Mac, the lessons learned best are the lessons learned hard. Take your dist. out of the intake. Pull the valve cover on the #1 cylinder side. Put #1 piston at what you feel is TDC. Watch valves while doing this. If the exhaust valve is the last on to close then you are in the proper position. If not turn the crank until the exhaust valve opens, then closes, then bring piston to top of cylinder. Now If you are using a HEI distributor position it so the wiring plugins are facing the power brake booster. The position of the #1 terminal in the distributor is somewhere in the one o'clock area if you were looking from the back of the engine. When you drop the dist. in the manifold it will sometime slip over toward the # 8 position before it seats. To avoid this start it with the shaft turned a little before the #1 position so when it drops in it will move into place. If this makes sense great, if not e-mail me and we'll see if I can explain it better over the phone. peace :cool Bud

 

[GerryLP]

I pulled the distrib to put on the new intake.

Mac,

I suspect that you are using the stock L81 Electronic Spark Timing (EST) distributor that hooks-up to the computer? 7-pin module type?

One useful trick is to momentarily place the distributor cap back on the distributor (don't worry about the rotor at this time). Then locate the protruding part of the rotor cap (the one marked C-, GND, B+,TACH, Bat)

Looking down onto the distributor and countimg clockwise, locate the second ignition wire post from the protruding part of the cap. Now, mark the metal base of the distributor with a VERTICAL line using a Sharpee thin marker. This is your number one wire location. Since you need to have the distributor cap off while installing the distributor, the mark will guide you to position the distributor base so that the mark is aiming (wroughly-not exact science here) towards the #1 piston location on the left front end of the cylinder head.

Next, take note of the pin crossing the gear of the distributor. You'll want to do this in reference to the distributor rotor (or the part of the shaft that usually is hidden by the distributor rotor). Now, the oil pump shaft has an open end that resembles a cylindrical shaft with a slot transversing it. This slot engages the pin that crosses the distributor gear. One good rule of thumb is approximately 15 degrees of lag on the rotor when droping-in the distributor to engage the oil pump shaft. So now, use the mark you placed on the base of the distributor as reference for the 15 degrees of rotation. While trying to minimize the movement on the base, rotate the shaft 15 degrees counterclockwise of the mark. Remember, that at the same time you're keeping track of the positioning of the slot in the oil pump shaft. So for example, you're aiming the mark towards the left-front side of the engine and while lowering the distributor, you turn the rotor 15 degrees counterclockwise and engage the oil pump shaft. Don't forget the seal between the distributor and the intake manifold.

As Robin stated above, the coil can be easily inspected by removing the cover off (this cover is below the ignition wire retainer. The cover is held in place with two screws). This will let you see if the leads are broken, burnt, or whatever. Use a multimeter or DC volt meter. With the key on you should be able to read the system voltage (approximately 11.5 - 11.8 volts). If the coil feels warm to the touch with the cover on, and the engine turns but won't start, then I definetely feel there is something wrong with the coil (the primary side is getting the juice, but the secondary has an open wire an unable to transform the voltage).

Lets talk about the Holley carb 4150. A very small amount of dirt can get on the intake needle, and give you that problem, but from the tone of it, it seems that this is a new or almost new carb, so I sort-off doubt it. You could have alot of cr@p floating around in the tank, but unless you have suspicions of this, then I would also doubt that is the cause. Of course I am suggesting you check the float in the bowl for piercing and make sure that the spring is functioning (with the bowl removed, turn it up-side-down, an see if the spring keeps the float from touching the side of the bowl). Sometimes, when the bowl bolts are over-tightened, the crease on the bowl edge will punture a slit through the gasket (you probably have the blue non-stick gaskets). This slit allows venting and leakage to the athmosphere, and so the carburator will perculate and flood the carb though the boosters and vent tube (you'll also find fuel along the bowl mating surface).

Another nice timing trick, which I learned here in the CAC, is that you can also rotate the #1 piston to TDC and the rotate the mark on the dampener (or while you are at it place a timing tape on it) to the Before Top Dead Center initial timing setting (L81's are usually between 6 and 8 degrees BTDC). That way, you'll just have to check that the initial is right where you want it with the timing light and also the engine will light-off on the first or second try. The rag trick is nice too.

Nevertheless, keep Mike (Stingray6974) in the loop. He's very experienced and he'll help you all the way. He's a great guy. Everyone here is very willing to help also.

 

[cntrhub]

Steve, Sorry, I have to add my 2 cents in here. The rag thing is a little tricky. By the time the rag flies out of the hole, the crank's timing mark may go past the static mark, and you might miss it? If you do not see the mark on the harmonic balancer, it is either coming up, or went past where #1 compression should be for ignition timing purposes. The best way, is to watch the intake valve go down. As you continue to turn the crank, the intake valve begins to come back to it's closed position. Start looking for the timing mark on the harmonic balancer. Once you line up the harmonic mark to the static mark welded on the chain cover, you may now insert the distributor.
Here is how you can visualize the distributor shaft's rotor position. Stand on the windshield (not literally of course) and face towards the front bumper. As you look down at the rotor's position, it should be somewhere at 11 O'clock, or pointing to the #1 cylinder. When you sink the distributor shaft to line up the rotor, moving one gear tooth from either side, will dramatically show you that you are not aiming for that 11 o'clock position. Once correctly installed, you now have your base position of the rotor for #1 cylinder. To verify, install the cap and place a colored tape mark to the #1 plug wire at the rotor. Then simply add the remaining 7 wires onto the cap. Use your 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 sequence, by installing the #8 wire next, and so on. All that is left is to take a timing light and adjust the distributor until you gain the desired degree specs.

 

[Jack]

one rev of the crank is 1/2 rev of cam/dist. So that would be 1/2 rev of rotor or 180 deg. I think?

Correct. Oil pump, Distributor shaft & Rotor run at same speed as Cam. Rotor turns Clockwise. Cam runs 1/2 speed of Crank.

For others with distributor-driven mechanical tachs ... the tach cable runs at same speed as distributor & cam ... tach cable runs at 1/2 speed of crank. When looking into the distributor ... the rotor turns clockwise & the tach drive turns clockwise. Test a tach cable/mech tach by chucking cable-end into Reversible drill ... spin the drill in Reverse. If drill turns 1800 RPM the tach should read 3600 RPM.
JACK:gap

 

[Macgyver]

Thank you all very much for all your help I really appreciate it. This board kicks ace and is saving me tons o cash plus helping me learn everything about this sweet ride which is exactly what I wanted when I bought it!

Ok so found out how to adjust the float on the Holley adn now got it to sit parallel. So now I shouldnt drench the garage w/ gas! Hopefully. Now its onto the timing.

The problem Im having is that i cant see the mark on the harmonic balancer! Can someone shed some light on where to get. If I want it at 8degrees BTDC then thats going to be between 11 and 12 o clock if Im staring at the car from the front right? When there then the #1 piston is going to be at the top.

Then drop the distrib in pointing to the first cylinder and inthe process of dropping it and it spinning down to the bottom, when it sits it should be pointing to the #2 cylinder or the passenger headlight right!? Please tell me Im right. The part thats confusing me the most is that everyone is looking at the car from a different angle. If you could specify the angle that your perspective is please. Once I get all that done then Ill check the coil and stuff like you said robin and Bud fi it still dont start.

Gerry, youve made me realise what the problem is! Yes it is the stock HEI. So the connectors for the tach, battery, and ignition are supposed to go on the left side of the engine , or the passenger side!? I went to get the wires and plugs replaced and the way its been since is that the connectors have been onthe drivers side! So #1 wire is going to plug in at 7o'clock if the windshields at 12o'clock right? maybe this is all why Ive been getting 6-8MPG in the city and 20 on the highway! Hmmmmmm...

Im almost there! Thank you all sooo much

 

[Macgyver]

No matter which way I do this it doesnt start and I still keep getting the pop out of the top of the carb!!!

The Batt wire only reaches the driver side of the vehicle so I guess the cap does point to the right and not he passenger side.

If I get a pop and it doesnt start then Im 180 out right? Cant I just rewire the distrib so that the one wire is where the 6 once was and then so on. Cause it seems to me that it doesnt matter where the rotors pointing, if youre #1 pistons up(compression stroke) then wherever your rotors pointing then thats where the #1 wire needs to be.

 

[brusso]

Yes, you are right. It dosen't matter where, on the dist, you put #1 wire as long as the rotor is pointed to it at the correct time and the wires are in the correct firing order from that point. Which brings up my next question. Do you still not have spark while cranking? Even if the wires are nowhere near close to being in the correct firing order or the dist being in the correct clock position, you should still get spark. It just wont be at the right time.

 

[Macgyver]

The problem has to be w/ the ditrib now. Ive set it in 100 times now and stil the same **** just that the pop out of the top of the car gets louder in different positions of the wires.

Ive pulled the one plug wire 3 times and the same thing happens. Theres no spark until I turn the key to the off position. Then it gives a little one that must be causing the popping. So now Im looking for culprits in the distrib. Everything looks connected right but my only concern is the 3 prong clip that plugs into something on the inside. Does anyone have a diagram of how thats supposed to be inthere properly and what those pieces are?