Welcome to the Corvette Forums at the Corvette Action Center!

rear geared for torque or HP? 1/4mile racing

Rab563

Active member
Joined
Nov 4, 2002
Messages
27
Location
Manteca
Corvette
1972 Black LT1
I have a 72 LTI with 4.11 gears. The engine is a replacement unit with hydraulic lifters with slightly more than a mild cam. Stock LT1 heads. The problem was that I could not get down the 1/4 mile without going over 6000 rpm. I don't know at what point would the valves begin to float but I think taking the engine over 6000 rpm might create a problem. I did have the car chassis dyno'd with the following numbers:

Peak HP 304 @5453rpm
Torq. 293.3 @4107 rpm

If I was to put a new rear end in, would I select a ratio that would keep the engine at 4107 rpm or at 5453 rpm at the end of the 1/4 mile?

rab563
72 LT1
 
Kind of a dilemna....

Those 4.11's make you accelerate faster, but the price you pay is higher RPM....

A SBC in decent shape should have no trouble with 6500, but sooner or later you will wear out the weakest valve spring if they aren't higher strength the faster you go. You can bolt on increase - or secure - your ability to handle 6000-6500 fairly easily. Note this is not to increase performance, but just durability.

  • Make sure you have screw in rocker arm studs - they can be threaded and changed to screw in on the engine if not.
  • Get the valve springs changed to the strongest you can get without having to machine your heads. (You can change these yourself but they are tough - especially the back few where there's less prying room.)
  • Go with some high strength/high speed valve retainers when you do this (steel or titanium).
  • Those first three items are skipped if you change heads.
  • Change to high strength pushrods.
  • Change to aluminum or high strength steel roller-tipped rocker arms.
  • Consider installing some type of stud girdle/push rod guides, if you can find one that fits without machining.
  • Change your timing chain to an enlarged true roller or a double roller or a gear drive, preferrably a greatly adjustable setup.
  • Install a cam bearing thrust collar or button when you change that timing set.
  • Go with some reducer or at least deep groove pulleys to both not shed belts and not eat up your water pump, alternator (just had that happen myself :( ), power steering pump and air conditioning.
  • Go with an electric fuel pump or change the fuel pump pusher rod to a strengthened lightweight one.
  • Watch your temperature at higher RPM as your water pump may cavitate at that speed and may need a new design, especially if you do not use the water pump reducer pulley.
  • Make sure your fan, if it's still mechanical, especially if the fan clutch has been bypassed, is rated for high RPM.

I have the 3.73's in my 12 bolt and have my rev limiter set for 6500. I don't push it beyond 6K intentionally. Today I just verified I got rid of a nuisance oil leak today by running it up to about 115 (gauge) for 10-15 secs and was way under 6K still.

What is your et - about 14.5, 15.5? I'm not a drag fiend, but at that range should only be about 95-100. While you could switch to the 3.90ish one that's available or even down to 3.70ish or 3.55 one the Dana 44/36 offer, that's a fairly expensive proposition - slightly more (barely) than those engine upgrades I listed.

A better approach would be to change your tranny. Go to a 4, 5 or even 6 speed manual or OD auto and you get the best of all world's. I favor the Gear Vendors OverDrive to bolt on to my T400 whenever I find my missing pot of gold....one of the Bob's just did it and loved it. It adds gears in between your regular gears as well - think you'd like that during a hot quarter run? It's $2.5K, but that rear end gear swap isn't cheap - especially if you don't do it yourself...

Your engine sounds solid and decently powerful, so crippling it's performance with highway gears would be a shame, and just cramming in a bunch of parts to make it survivable at higher RPM seems to beg the question. Your new gears are probably doing great at minimizing your time - it seems a shame to change them.

All of these changes are bucks - but some other tranny swaps aren't that high, depending on what you have now.
 
I have always heard that you want to hit the finish line just as the engine is hitting the redline in 4th gear. So you need what ever gear that will allow that.

tom...
 
Taking a cast crank and piston's over 6000 rpm is a receipe for disaster in my opinoin.Also you are not making any power there I would think based on your dyno result's.Just a thought but try taller tire's? Hope this at least add's some more idea's.
 
I got off the subject on my post.5500 rpm would be what I would shoot for.that is getting close to a perfect world going by those dyno number's
 
Re: Kind of a dilemna....

WayneLBurnham said:
Those 4.11's make you accelerate faster, but the price you pay is higher RPM....

A SBC in decent shape should have no trouble with 6500, but sooner or later you will wear out the weakest valve spring if they aren't higher strength the faster you go. You can bolt on increase - or secure - your ability to handle 6000-6500 fairly easily. Note this is not to increase performance, but just durability.

  • Make sure you have screw in rocker arm studs - they can be threaded and changed to screw in on the engine if not.
  • Get the valve springs changed to the strongest you can get without having to machine your heads. (You can change these yourself but they are tough - especially the back few where there's less prying room.)
  • Go with some high strength/high speed valve retainers when you do this (steel or titanium).
  • Those first three items are skipped if you change heads.
  • Change to high strength pushrods.
  • Change to aluminum or high strength steel roller-tipped rocker arms.
  • Consider installing some type of stud girdle/push rod guides, if you can find one that fits without machining.
  • Change your timing chain to an enlarged true roller or a double roller or a gear drive, preferrably a greatly adjustable setup.
  • Install a cam bearing thrust collar or button when you change that timing set.
  • Go with some reducer or at least deep groove pulleys to both not shed belts and not eat up your water pump, alternator (just had that happen myself :( ), power steering pump and air conditioning.
  • Go with an electric fuel pump or change the fuel pump pusher rod to a strengthened lightweight one.
  • Watch your temperature at higher RPM as your water pump may cavitate at that speed and may need a new design, especially if you do not use the water pump reducer pulley.
  • Make sure your fan, if it's still mechanical, especially if the fan clutch has been bypassed, is rated for high RPM.

I have the 3.73's in my 12 bolt and have my rev limiter set for 6500. I don't push it beyond 6K intentionally. Today I just verified I got rid of a nuisance oil leak today by running it up to about 115 (gauge) for 10-15 secs and was way under 6K still.

What is your et - about 14.5, 15.5? I'm not a drag fiend, but at that range should only be about 95-100. While you could switch to the 3.90ish one that's available or even down to 3.70ish or 3.55 one the Dana 44/36 offer, that's a fairly expensive proposition - slightly more (barely) than those engine upgrades I listed.

A better approach would be to change your tranny. Go to a 4, 5 or even 6 speed manual or OD auto and you get the best of all world's. I favor the Gear Vendors OverDrive to bolt on to my T400 whenever I find my missing pot of gold....one of the Bob's just did it and loved it. It adds gears in between your regular gears as well - think you'd like that during a hot quarter run? It's $2.5K, but that rear end gear swap isn't cheap - especially if you don't do it yourself...

Your engine sounds solid and decently powerful, so crippling it's performance with highway gears would be a shame, and just cramming in a bunch of parts to make it survivable at higher RPM seems to beg the question. Your new gears are probably doing great at minimizing your time - it seems a shame to change them.

All of these changes are bucks - but some other tranny swaps aren't that high, depending on what you have now.

My E.T. was 13.937 @106.351mph. My car has a M21 close ratio 4-speed tranny. One reason I was going to lower the rpm's was to avoid all the engine work. Changing the diff to a 3.70 should allow me to get through quarter and keep the rpm's within reason. I was really asking was should I gear for max HP or Max Torq? You did give a couple of ideas. Thanks.

Rab563
 
Re: Kind of a dilemna....

WayneLBurnham said:
Those 4.11's make you accelerate faster, but the price you pay is higher RPM....

A SBC in decent shape should have no trouble with 6500, but sooner or later you will wear out the weakest valve spring if they aren't higher strength the faster you go. You can bolt on increase - or secure - your ability to handle 6000-6500 fairly easily. Note this is not to increase performance, but just durability.

  • Make sure you have screw in rocker arm studs - they can be threaded and changed to screw in on the engine if not.
  • Get the valve springs changed to the strongest you can get without having to machine your heads. (You can change these yourself but they are tough - especially the back few where there's less prying room.)
  • Go with some high strength/high speed valve retainers when you do this (steel or titanium).
  • Those first three items are skipped if you change heads.
  • Change to high strength pushrods.
  • Change to aluminum or high strength steel roller-tipped rocker arms.
  • Consider installing some type of stud girdle/push rod guides, if you can find one that fits without machining.
  • Change your timing chain to an enlarged true roller or a double roller or a gear drive, preferrably a greatly adjustable setup.
  • Install a cam bearing thrust collar or button when you change that timing set.
  • Go with some reducer or at least deep groove pulleys to both not shed belts and not eat up your water pump, alternator (just had that happen myself :( ), power steering pump and air conditioning.
  • Go with an electric fuel pump or change the fuel pump pusher rod to a strengthened lightweight one.
  • Watch your temperature at higher RPM as your water pump may cavitate at that speed and may need a new design, especially if you do not use the water pump reducer pulley.
  • Make sure your fan, if it's still mechanical, especially if the fan clutch has been bypassed, is rated for high RPM.

I have the 3.73's in my 12 bolt and have my rev limiter set for 6500. I don't push it beyond 6K intentionally. Today I just verified I got rid of a nuisance oil leak today by running it up to about 115 (gauge) for 10-15 secs and was way under 6K still.

What is your et - about 14.5, 15.5? I'm not a drag fiend, but at that range should only be about 95-100. While you could switch to the 3.90ish one that's available or even down to 3.70ish or 3.55 one the Dana 44/36 offer, that's a fairly expensive proposition - slightly more (barely) than those engine upgrades I listed.

A better approach would be to change your tranny. Go to a 4, 5 or even 6 speed manual or OD auto and you get the best of all world's. I favor the Gear Vendors OverDrive to bolt on to my T400 whenever I find my missing pot of gold....one of the Bob's just did it and loved it. It adds gears in between your regular gears as well - think you'd like that during a hot quarter run? It's $2.5K, but that rear end gear swap isn't cheap - especially if you don't do it yourself...

Your engine sounds solid and decently powerful, so crippling it's performance with highway gears would be a shame, and just cramming in a bunch of parts to make it survivable at higher RPM seems to beg the question. Your new gears are probably doing great at minimizing your time - it seems a shame to change them.

All of these changes are bucks - but some other tranny swaps aren't that high, depending on what you have now.

My E.T. was 13.937 @106.351mph. My car has a M21 close ratio 4-speed tranny. One reason I was going to lower the rpm's was to avoid all the engine work. Changing the diff to a 3.70 should allow me to get through quarter and keep the rpm's within reason. I was really asking was should I gear for max HP or Max Torq? You did give a couple of ideas. Thanks.

Rab563
 
Tom73 said:
I have always heard that you want to hit the finish line just as the engine is hitting the redline in 4th gear. So you need what ever gear that will allow that.

tom...

I am assuming you mean rpm's and not torque. That what I thought but I wasn't sure.

Thanks,

Ron
 
You must remember that the LT-1 was designed to be a high revving motor, with a 6500 rpm redline. If it is a real LT-1, it has a forged steel crank and Pink rods, both of which are the best Chevy had in those days.
Going to a higher gear may put you closer to your peak Hp at the end of the strip, but it may take you longer to get there, because you won't accelerate as fast. I personally would stick with what you've got, and not worry about it.
I autocross with my 70-spec LT-1 engine, and occasionally spin it to 7200 with no problem.
 
1/4 mile RPM

Using a formula to figure RPM, gear ratio, MPH ( I have done some racing), I figure you WERE turning about 5400-5500 'in the lights'. For Forum members' knowledge, here is the formula: To figure RPM, and knowing tire height, gear ratio, and trans ratio (if OD); MPH x Gear ratio x Trans ratio (if any) x 336 divided by Tire height = RPM. You say you hit 106.3 in the 1/4 mile; your rear gearing is 4.11:1; I'm assuming you were in 4th (1:1) gear; and I'm 'guessing' your tire height at 27". Using these numbers, let's compute: 106.3 x 4.11 x 1 x 336 divided by 27 = 5436 RPM (if you have an older automatic w/o lock-up converter, divide again by .9 to account for converter slippage; if have an OD converter, x by the OD ratio.) If you'd drop to a 3.55:1 gear, you'd 'only' turn 4696 RPM ( the earlier 5436 RPM div 4.11 x 3.55)@ 106.3, but I doubt you'll GET to 106.3 MPH in the 1/4 mile. I agree w/ earlier members; if it IS an LT-1 (4-bolt/steel crank/pink rod/forged pistons), it's good to 6000 RPM if it's not been 'beat'. I hope this 'helps' more than it confuses members of the Forum!
 
My engine is not a solid lifter motor. It was replaced at sometime with a hydrualic verson. My tire size is 25.25 inchs. I have no idea what the crank, rods, or pistions are made of. Because of this uncertainty, I was trying not to run the motor above 5500rpm. Then came the question, do I setup for peak HP or Peak Torque?

I thought I was turning over 6000 rpm but on the rear gear ratio calculator in the tools section I am only turning 5750 rpm.

I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me. I think I will set for HP and leave the ratio at 4.11:1

Ron
 
Whats the alititude you live it at and were those numbers corrected.

From your trap I think you still have A LOT more in your car. I think you could get low 13's with some traction, if thats a problem.

Cast crank is just fine for what your putting to the wheels. Don't sweat that. I would worry more about bearings and rods.

The rear end rationis already setup for the 1/4.

Get your dyno graph out, start to figure out what your optimum shift points are. Some might disagree but taking it up to redline doesn't mean you are accelerating to your full potential. Have fun!

Were you in 4th by the end?

Frank
 
I agree w/ sscam69; ET-wise, there's a LOT left in your car! Are you having traction woes? The NHRA factors the 1/8 mile ET @ .64 of the 1/4 mile ET; A 10-flat car (in NHRA's eyes) 'should' run a 6.4 1/8-mile. that being said, did you run the 1/8 mile in 8.919 seconds (.64 x 13.937)? My '79 Z28 runs low-8.20s in the 1/8, and the 1/4 in 12.90/80 range, @ 105+. Instead of a costly ring-pinion swap, why not run your LT1 with taller tires at the strip? Not only will this 'slow' your RPMs down, it'll also help you 'hook' better by effectively putting 'taller' (lower numerically) gears in the rear end. It is really quite simple; if you INCREASE your tire height by 5%, at the same speed, your RPM will DECREASE the same 5%. If you think your rear-end can take the abuse, try a set of taller, 'sticky' street tires. If you get the traction solved, you'll begin running even quicker ETs, and possibly higher MPH, which will result in higher RPM if you don't run taller tires. Your ET, MPH, and RPM will thank you :BOW ;worship ; your rear-end, U-joints, and half-shafts; that's another story:bang :hb :r :bash :puke
 

Corvette Forums

Not a member of the Corvette Action Center?  Join now!  It's free!

Help support the Corvette Action Center!

Supporting Vendors

Dealers:

MacMulkin Chevrolet - The Second Largest Corvette Dealer in the Country!

Advertise with the Corvette Action Center!

Double Your Chances!

Our Partners

Back
Top Bottom