Reprogram-is it worth it?

[lov-n-life]

Ok, so I am already getting accustomed to my new C5 and know what to expect when opening up the all the LS1 can eat buffet under my right foot. Although it is markedly fast and I love it, it just isn't "brutal" enough... i.e., I have yet to leave a permanent impression in my seat back from acceleration G's. I was informed today that an acquaintance of mine can get me about 50% off on having the car reprogrammed. Here is my dilema, this is my only car and I want a good balance of power and fuel economy. I don't want to go crazy on modifications either, but I do want to be in the 400HP/400lb ft arena. Question being, what kind of HP/TQ increases can I reasonably expect from a reprogram? Currently the car is a completely stock 2004 coupe with 6-speed. Eventually I will either open up the air-box and add a K&N or install an aftermarket box (I've seen a nice looking ram air system at www.madvet.com I like). Thanks for info!
If the tires aren't talking, you're not driving it!

 

[lov-n-life]

One more thing... Anyone have the clear plastic film protection installed on their C5? How much does this run to have a reputable place install it?

 

[DRTH VTR]

Others may differ with me on this. I don't think that you will get much with a reprogram. If it was that easy, GM would have done it. C4C5 says that there can be driveablity concerns, and to avoid them. Also, when the dealer gets your car and does an update on the engine program, the predator (or whatever) one can be gone.


Putting a K&N filter on will not make much difference, either. It is necessary to upgrade the entire intake and the entire exhaust as a system to get any really significant improvement. You will not get to 400HP without opening your wallet.

 

[Tuna]

^
|
What he said!

Bolt on, simple mods are not going to get an LS1 into the 400/400 range.

The K&N does not provide any real improvement over a brand new paper filter but it will continue to provide that level of air flow over a very long period of time while the paper filter will lose air flow as it gets dirtier.

Ram air or a Blackwing will open up a little more air flow. Adding a Z06 air box lid will also but not as much.

The LS1 is a pretty good balance of power and economy. Neither of my 400hp or near 400hp cars is as good on mileage as my 03 vert with LS1 power.

 

[RCG]

Spend the money on gasoline and enjoy driving it, instead of peeing it away on frippery.

 

[jcs712]

If you are interested, there is an article in this months Corvette Fever regarding the use of the Preditor power programmer on an MN6 car. Car was already slightly moded but gains after the program edits were installed were only about 12 RWHP and 22 Ib ft of torque. HP costs money and believe me, you will spend a lot of it to get to 400HP. I woud have to say your best and cheapest route would be to start with intake and exhaust mods. From there, look at some type of forced induction system such as supercharging or turbos. These will get you the large gains in HP you are looking for. Expect these forced induction systems to cost on average $7,000 - $10,000 installed. Have fun.

 

[cavettefan]

...HP costs money and believe me, you will spend a lot of it to get to 400HP. I woud have to say your best and cheapest route would be to start with intake and exhaust mods. From there, look at some type of forced induction system such as supercharging or turbos. These will get you the large gains in HP you are looking for. Expect these forced induction systems to cost on average $7,000 - $10,000 installed. Have fun.

HP does in fact cost money. There are two approaches: 1.) Forced induction as jcs712 mentions or 2.) Enhancing the existing engine (cold air intake, larger throttle body, swap heads and cam, higher flow injectors, headers and cat-back exhaust). Personally, I went the second route because I didn't want to roll the dice on reduced engine life from the forced induction. You will get advocates of both approaches; ultimately it is your call. Going the route that I went resulted in 440 hp and 420 ft/lbs and the car has stock drivability - it is just much quicker. It also has a better sound from the cat-back exhaust.

 

[lov-n-life]

If you are interested, there is an article in this months Corvette Fever regarding the use of the Preditor power programmer on an MN6 car. Car was already slightly moded but gains after the program edits were installed were only about 12 RWHP and 22 Ib ft of torque. HP costs money and believe me, you will spend a lot of it to get to 400HP. I woud have to say your best and cheapest route would be to start with intake and exhaust mods. From there, look at some type of forced induction system such as supercharging or turbos. These will get you the large gains in HP you are looking for. Expect these forced induction systems to cost on average $7,000 - $10,000 installed. Have fun.

JCS,
Thanks for the info. I'll have to see if I can track down a copy of the magazine. As for their increases, 12RWHP and 22lb ft is actually looking to be close to what I want. I would like to see about 400/400 at the flywheel. Torque is where I want to see my money best spent, and 22lb ft (especially if that is also at the flywheel) would put me where I want to be. Already planning a change to the air box, although I haven't decided which system yet, and looking at various options for the exhaust. Will probably end up with long tube headers and a mellow sounding tail end. I happen to have a good Corvette specialist in my area that builds 800+ HP daily driver Corvettes. I talked to him and his solution to everything is forced induction. I understand the theory and why (I'm an aircraft engine mechanic by trade, so this really isn't all new to me), however as a daily driver, I don't need 500+ HP and I don't want to change the hood to clear the blower he wants to install. The 2002 ZO6's power band is about as close to perfect for a daily driver as you can get, IMHO. That is where my 400/400 at the flywheel target is coming from.

 

[vettepilot]

JCS,
Thanks for the info. I'll have to see if I can track down a copy of the magazine. As for their increases, 12RWHP and 22lb ft is actually looking to be close to what I want. I would like to see about 400/400 at the flywheel. Torque is where I want to see my money best spent, and 22lb ft (especially if that is also at the flywheel) would put me where I want to be. Already planning a change to the air box, although I haven't decided which system yet, and looking at various options for the exhaust. Will probably end up with long tube headers and a mellow sounding tail end. I happen to have a good Corvette specialist in my area that builds 800+ HP daily driver Corvettes. I talked to him and his solution to everything is forced induction. I understand the theory and why (I'm an aircraft engine mechanic by trade, so this really isn't all new to me), however as a daily driver, I don't need 500+ HP and I don't want to change the hood to clear the blower he wants to install. The 2002 ZO6's power band is about as close to perfect for a daily driver as you can get, IMHO. That is where my 400/400 at the flywheel target is coming from.

I know where there's a 2002 Electron Blue Z06........ :L :L :L

vettepilot

 

[lov-n-life]

I know where there's a 2002 Electron Blue Z06........ :L :L :L

vettepilot

Is that an offer to trade? :crazy :crazy

 

[Bioscache2]

JCS,
Thanks for the info. I'll have to see if I can track down a copy of the magazine. As for their increases, 12RWHP and 22lb ft is actually looking to be close to what I want. I would like to see about 400/400 at the flywheel. Torque is where I want to see my money best spent, and 22lb ft (especially if that is also at the flywheel) would put me where I want to be. Already planning a change to the air box, although I haven't decided which system yet, and looking at various options for the exhaust. Will probably end up with long tube headers and a mellow sounding tail end. I happen to have a good Corvette specialist in my area that builds 800+ HP daily driver Corvettes. I talked to him and his solution to everything is forced induction. I understand the theory and why (I'm an aircraft engine mechanic by trade, so this really isn't all new to me), however as a daily driver, I don't need 500+ HP and I don't want to change the hood to clear the blower he wants to install. The 2002 ZO6's power band is about as close to perfect for a daily driver as you can get, IMHO. That is where my 400/400 at the flywheel target is coming from.

I would hold off on the editing until you put the mods in. Right now GM has the best program running really so until you mod it (I would say at least two mods) hold off on the reprograming or you could be wasting money.

 

[04cmnthru]

Friend has an 03 coupe. Installed Vortex Rammer, Fast-X, long tube headers, racing cats, Corsa Indies, had LS edit and a few minor things ('stat, etc). Got 425 hp on dyno. But to support other comments - its cost a boat load of cash. Now has concerns that auto tranny can't handle power and torque if driven hard.

 

[04cmnthru]

Forgot to add - there doesn't seem to be any daily drivability problems from the work that was done.

 

[Pac-man]

Every once in a while someone says something to the effect of "if it was that easy GM would have done it". GM is restricted as to what they do by emisions regulations as well as numerous other regulations of manufacture. The aftermarket rules are much less strict. Keep that in mind.

 

[Hib Halverson]

Ok, so I am already getting accustomed to my new C5 and know what to expect when opening up the all the LS1 can eat buffet under my right foot. Although it is markedly fast and I love it, it just isn't "brutal" enough... i.e., I have yet to leave a permanent impression in my seat back from acceleration G's. I was informed today that an acquaintance of mine can get me about 50% off on having the car reprogrammed. Here is my dilema, this is my only car and I want a good balance of power and fuel economy. I don't want to go crazy on modifications either, but I do want to be in the 400HP/400lb ft arena. Question being, what kind of HP/TQ increases can I reasonably expect from a reprogram? Currently the car is a completely stock 2004 coupe with 6-speed. Eventually I will either open up the air-box and add a K&N or install an aftermarket box (I've seen a nice looking ram air system at www.madvet.com I like). Thanks for info!
If the tires aren't talking, you're not driving it!

With a stock or near stock engine, there is little to be gained from reprogramming the ECM. I'd make a reflash of the ECM a low priority. Even if you do choose to perform that modification, what you reprogram with and how the reprogram is written is very important.

Once you get to near 400hp (and I assume you mean 400hp at the flywheel) then, is the time to reprogram. With that level of modifications, you'll need it.

Also, know that 400 hp will not come with just an air box. You'll need that plus a low restriction exhaust, ported heads, probably a camshaft change and removal of the pup cats. Once you do all that, you will need the reprograming.

As for your second question, about clear plastic film...if you mean Scotchcal, adhesive-backed, polyurethane film...it works great on protecting the front end from stone chips. I don't have it on my C5 yet, but I have it on my C4 and it's worked very well. I highly recommend it. For more info, see: http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com...cmd=details&itemid=103&username=Hib+Halverson

 

[c4c5specialist]

Hi there,
And if the graphs/tables are looked at a little closer, you loose torque at the bottom of the RPM range, which is where most people spend their time driving.
If there is more there, add the mods that are installed to the formula.
For a stock vehicle, you do not get the drivability, torque down low, or the ability to receive a GM programming for updates if needed.
I still suggest NO.
Allthebest, c4c5

 

[lov-n-life]

Thanks for the input

Thanks for all the input . I believe I'll just hold off on the programming. With the small increase, if any, I would get for my money right now it doesn't seem worth it. Especially with the loss in low end torque. Torque is really where I want to spend my money anyways. I'll wait until later when I perhaps some other goodies installed, like better breathing through the air-box, headers, exhaust, maybe a mild cam and LS6 heads. Which brings up another question. Is the '04 intake identical to the LS6 intake or was the same intake carried over from '03 and previous years? Also, I see alot about aftermarket MAF and throttle bodies. I believe I've seen the flow rate of stock to be 750CFM and an aftermarket flowing 1050CFM. Is there anything to really be gained (guys and gals with dyno proof chime in here!) with an aftermarket MAF and throttle body? Thanks again! One of these days I'll get back up to speed on everything Corvette mechanical, just haven't been getting my hands dirty enough lately.

 

[vettepilot]

Thanks for all the input . I believe I'll just hold off on the programming. With the small increase, if any, I would get for my money right now it doesn't seem worth it. Especially with the loss in low end torque. Torque is really where I want to spend my money anyways. I'll wait until later when I perhaps some other goodies installed, like better breathing through the air-box, headers, exhaust, maybe a mild cam and LS6 heads. Which brings up another question. Is the '04 intake identical to the LS6 intake or was the same intake carried over from '03 and previous years? Also, I see alot about aftermarket MAF and throttle bodies. I believe I've seen the flow rate of stock to be 750CFM and an aftermarket flowing 1050CFM. Is there anything to really be gained (guys and gals with dyno proof chime in here!) with an aftermarket MAF and throttle body? Thanks again! One of these days I'll get back up to speed on everything Corvette mechanical, just haven't been getting my hands dirty enough lately.

The LS6 intake was installed on 2001 and later LS1 engines. Additionally, starting sometime in 2001 the LS6 block was used for the LS1 engines to help reduce the cost of casting different blocks.
Unless the breathing of the engine is improved with better head/cam package and long tube headers, the stock throttle body should flow sufficient air. The aftermarket MAF question is one I'm not certain about. However they don't come cheap either, think $500.00 for a MAF. I'm not certain about it, but some gain should be had simply by removing the screen that is on the stock LS1 MAF. The LS6 has no screen. That screen removal is supposedly good for 5 hp, so that's a good return for about an hours worth of CAREFUL work.
As you know I have the Donaldson Blackwing on my car, I like it. Others have the Halltech and swear by those. Again your'e looking at $200.00 - $350.00 for what is essentially a high flowing air filter, and better flow characteristics out of the air box to the throttle body. Read around on here or do a search for the ZIP Tie method of opening the air cleaner box and retaining the stock filter with Zip ties. Lots of info available for free before you spend your hard earned money for small gains.

vettepilot