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Sharks and Radar - my take

81 Corvette

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2003
Messages
525
Location
Toledo
Corvette
1981 Pearl White
You probally have seen the arguement a number of times. Are sharks invisible to radar. My conclusion is that they are less likely to be picked up on radar then most cars. This pic was taken this AM. Notice, that there is no speed read out. I did see several other cars set it off, including cars that were 50 yards away from it. There is anouther one of these devices over I75 and I've seen the same thing happen with my car.

ubb.x
 
stealth shark! NICE! :D
 
:L

Thats what i try and use em for, but they don't always place nice
 
Hey 81..

How goes the mods and what are your thoughts so far ;)

Bud
 
mods are done for now....i'm loving the gearing....gotta get around and redo all teh bearings and bushings, but that takes cash, adn since i don't have cash to burn, it'll wait for now.
 
I should have been stopped once but wasn't

I once crested a hill in a rural 45mph zone, and a radar trap was there. I was doing around 60, and was dead meat, or so I thought. There is no way they didn't aim at me. I hit the brakes as soon as I saw them and went by them at 45. They did not pursue. I had always been told the fiberglass body and the slanted radiator made it hard to get a Corvette of our vintage, but this experience made a believer out of me.
 
81 Corvette said:
You probally have seen the arguement a number of times. Are sharks invisible to radar. My conclusion is that they are less likely to be picked up on radar then most cars. This pic was taken this AM. Notice, that there is no speed read out. I did see several other cars set it off, including cars that were 50 yards away from it. There is anouther one of these devices over I75 and I've seen the same thing happen with my car.

http://corvetteforums.net/eve/ubb.x?a=getphotoalbumimage&topic_oid=t906101916&album_image_oid=726101916&isthumb=N
Total urban legend.

No Corvette is "invisible" to radar.

From a radar gun's perspective the two biggest reflective objects are the radiator core and the engine block.

The radar units on those stupid signs the safety Nazis put up all over the place are a lot less efficient than the radar guns used by the cops to bust you for speed.

Don't believe a Vette is "invisible". If you do, keep your checking account fat to pay all the fines.
 
Corvettes do set off radar

I live in a country club development that has it's own security with radar which writes tickets. The speed limit on all streets is 25 mph. Golf carts use the streets going to the golf course. We have one of the portable speed detectors that displays your speed when you go by. It always works when I go by in my Vett.

I've had two tickets in the last two years for doing "30" in a 25. Boy was I flying! Have you ever tried to drive a four speed around and not go over 25 down hills. It's hard to do.

I don't see any reason why a Corvette wouldn't be detected by radar.
 
Hib pretty much said what I was gonna but I can add a few things... maybe one or two things the technical writer might be aware of... or not. :D

For those who don't know, I'm a cop and I'm certified expert at estimating speed, including using radar and laser. Although I'm no longer working highway patrol, I did a couple of years as a professional ticket writer.

Fiberglass is effectively invisible to radar but the metal of the frame, the rad, the motor, the birdcage, etc etc etc... every bit of it reflects the radar. The lower profile which a Shark presents helps a bit but by no means are Sharks invisible to radar.

Radar isn't the be-all, end-all by any stretch of the imagination. There's a reason why some many tickets get tossed out of court despite "good" radar results. If you sit still and watch one of those radar trailers as displayed in the picture, you'll observe most of what I'm about to describe.

Most police radar have a single antenna which transmits a radar signal that spreads out in a cone shaped pattern in front of the antenna and reflects off of anything and everything inside that pattern. The same antenna is used to receive the reflected signal. The speed, wave length and modulation of the transmitted signal are known so the receiver is set to exclude that signal. If the modulation of the reflected signal is Doppler-shifted by movement within the pattern, the instrumentation measures the shift and displays it as a speed.

Doppler shift? The sound of the train's horn changes as it goes past because the movement of the train affects the sound waves, etc. As stated above, the radar receiver is set to exclude the known transmitted signal. In other words, if nothing is moving, the signal isn't changed and nothing displays as a speed. Practically speaking, there is never a time when nothing is moving.

Radar measures EVERYTHING within it's range which means erratic and/or unreliable readings are very common. If a bird zooms past the radar antenna, it will be measured. If a raindrop falls, it will be measured. The radar sets have a gain control which the operator uses to exclude most of these unwanted readings but if it's set too high, everything is excluded so most of the time, gain is set mid-range.

The radar set will display the strongest signal which it receives. That's why I said fiberglass is effectively invisible- the metal behind it will produce a much stronger signal than the plastic fantastic so the fiberglass become irrelevent.

So if a tractor-trailer is approaching you from behind, being that it's a larger mass of metal, the radar will likely display it over your Shark... or it might display a combination of your speeds... or the difference between them. What's to stop the transmitted signal from bouncing between your vehicle and the tractor trailer? What if that bounced signal ends up stronger than that of your Shark or his truck? Errant reading!

Then there are times when the radar set will display speeds which are completely wrong. A car doing 30 mph shows as doing 60 mph... or there's no car but a "ghost reading" (yep, that's what they call it) shows. False readings are common, especially if gain is set low. What's to keep the cops from making a mistake? Well....

The way it's supposed to work is the cop uses the radar to confirm his visual estimate of speed. In other words, the cop should use his judgement rather than trusting the technology. Some cops leave the radar running and use the audibel tone it generates to draw his attention away from his donut & coffee long enough to see you speeding. Others leave the radar in "stand-by" and use the 'instant-on' once he's already eyeballed you just to confirm his visual estimate. If you get stopped by the guy doing the latter, you're getting a ticket and chances are you won't get out of it in court.

NOW, the sweet curves of the Shark do make it much more difficult to use laser for speed enforcement. Laser is strictly "line of sight" so a reflected signal is necessary or no reading is obtained. In most cases, cars have upright licence plates, grills, turn signels, etc.. so getting a reflection isn't difficult however the angles of the front end of Sharks tend to bounce the laser up into the sky or down onto the ground.

I could ramble on about laser too but you've probably read enough of me for one day.

-Mac
 
Mac said:
Hib pretty much said what I was gonna but I can add a few things... maybe one or two things the technical writer might be aware of... or not. :D

For those who don't know, I'm a cop and I'm certified expert at estimating speed, including using radar and laser. Although I'm no longer working highway patrol, I did a couple of years as a professional ticket writer.

Fiberglass is effectively invisible to radar but the metal of the frame, the rad, the motor, the birdcage, etc etc etc... every bit of it reflects the radar. The lower profile which a Shark presents helps a bit but by no means are Sharks invisible to radar.

Radar isn't the be-all, end-all by any stretch of the imagination. There's a reason why some many tickets get tossed out of court despite "good" radar results. If you sit still and watch one of those radar trailers as displayed in the picture, you'll observe most of what I'm about to describe.

Most police radar have a single antenna which transmits a radar signal that spreads out in a cone shaped pattern in front of the antenna and reflects off of anything and everything inside that pattern. The same antenna is used to receive the reflected signal. The speed, wave length and modulation of the transmitted signal are known so the receiver is set to exclude that signal. If the modulation of the reflected signal is Doppler-shifted by movement within the pattern, the instrumentation measures the shift and displays it as a speed.

Doppler shift? The sound of the train's horn changes as it goes past because the movement of the train affects the sound waves, etc. As stated above, the radar receiver is set to exclude the known transmitted signal. In other words, if nothing is moving, the signal isn't changed and nothing displays as a speed. Practically speaking, there is never a time when nothing is moving.

Radar measures EVERYTHING within it's range which means erratic and/or unreliable readings are very common. If a bird zooms past the radar antenna, it will be measured. If a raindrop falls, it will be measured. The radar sets have a gain control which the operator uses to exclude most of these unwanted readings but if it's set too high, everything is excluded so most of the time, gain is set mid-range.

The radar set will display the strongest signal which it receives. That's why I said fiberglass is effectively invisible- the metal behind it will produce a much stronger signal than the plastic fantastic so the fiberglass become irrelevent.

So if a tractor-trailer is approaching you from behind, being that it's a larger mass of metal, the radar will likely display it over your Shark... or it might display a combination of your speeds... or the difference between them. What's to stop the transmitted signal from bouncing between your vehicle and the tractor trailer? What if that bounced signal ends up stronger than that of your Shark or his truck? Errant reading!

Then there are times when the radar set will display speeds which are completely wrong. A car doing 30 mph shows as doing 60 mph... or there's no car but a "ghost reading" (yep, that's what they call it) shows. False readings are common, especially if gain is set low. What's to keep the cops from making a mistake? Well....

The way it's supposed to work is the cop uses the radar to confirm his visual estimate of speed. In other words, the cop should use his judgement rather than trusting the technology. Some cops leave the radar running and use the audibel tone it generates to draw his attention away from his donut & coffee long enough to see you speeding. Others leave the radar in "stand-by" and use the 'instant-on' once he's already eyeballed you just to confirm his visual estimate. If you get stopped by the guy doing the latter, you're getting a ticket and chances are you won't get out of it in court.

NOW, the sweet curves of the Shark do make it much more difficult to use laser for speed enforcement. Laser is strictly "line of sight" so a reflected signal is necessary or no reading is obtained. In most cases, cars have upright licence plates, grills, turn signels, etc.. so getting a reflection isn't difficult however the angles of the front end of Sharks tend to bounce the laser up into the sky or down onto the ground.

I could ramble on about laser too but you've probably read enough of me for one day.

-Mac
You've made my head hurt!
 
Just as well I didn't get technical, huh? :L

-Mac
 
just out of curosity what Radar detector or jammers do some of you use, I have both 76 and a 97 and have gotten tickets with both and am shopping around for some detection aids:L

my shark always sets off those speed machines although it seems to be about 7 mph lower then the speedometer
 
I got my first radar detector (I think it was actually called a Fuzz Buster!) about 35 years ago. Mostly I've had Escort/Passport etc. but when I got the Vette I also got the V1:) Gotta love those arrows. It's very programmable (& easy to program)


My (wallet) vote is for the Valentine:)

Course you still need to drive safe & keep your eyes scanning for Mr Law:)
 
At the risk of hijacking the thread - if so just tell me to go start a new one...

What right does a jurisdiction (ie the State of VA for one) have to outlaw the use of radar detectors? What gives a state the right to tell me that I am not allowed to use electronics to detect eletromagnetic waves that are flying through the air. I am not altering those signals, and I am not emitting any signals of my own (note I said detectors, not jammers) - I am passively detecting their presence and am not interfereing in any way with the purpose those signals were emitted in the first place.

I thought my rights and freedoms could only be legislated against when they impinged upon the rights and freedoms of others.

Also note that I have never owned or operated a radar detector - I've never had the need for one. I am simply genuinely curious as to why jurisdictions are allowed to do this.

Semper Fidelis,
Culprit
 
Culprit -- Interesting perspective with respect to impinging on the rights on others . . but pragmatically, it's the same argument for wearing a seatbelt or a motorcycle helmet. It may not be probable cause for the stop, but you'll earn the citation nevertheless. If you disagree with the law, contest it in court or launch a legislative initiative to revise/alter the statute.

Mac- thank you for a wonderful explanation for speed detection devices - - wish you'd be the instructor a hundred years ago when I went through the academy !
Regards-
CQRT in AZ
 
I'm glad you enjoyed it! :)

-Mac
 
Culprit said:
At the risk of hijacking the thread - if so just tell me to go start a new one...

What right does a jurisdiction (ie the State of VA for one) have to outlaw the use of radar detectors? What gives a state the right to tell me that I am not allowed to use electronics to detect eletromagnetic waves that are flying through the air. I am not altering those signals, and I am not emitting any signals of my own (note I said detectors, not jammers) - I am passively detecting their presence and am not interfereing in any way with the purpose those signals were emitted in the first place.

I thought my rights and freedoms could only be legislated against when they impinged upon the rights and freedoms of others.

Also note that I have never owned or operated a radar detector - I've never had the need for one. I am simply genuinely curious as to why jurisdictions are allowed to do this.

Semper Fidelis,
Culprit
Some states in my mind just generally Suck. You know, the states you don't even like to drive thru. Virginia is one of them as is Massachuchetts. Why TF would any state put a moniker on them that most people can't even spell?
 
Maybe that's their chosen method of quality control for residents... if you can't spell our state name, you can't live here! :L

No, wait... Arkansas... never mind. :D

-Mac
 
Mac,

Thanks for the explaination. Good to know. Bearing that in mind, is are those little radar "warning" signs acurate? I always get a different number that the spedo shows. Of course the spedo is also 32 years old. :)

If the cops are using the same radar as those warning signs, perhaps I should find out what "they" think my speed is. Thats the number that really counts!

So do warning signs display the same speed as a radar gun?


Thanks,

-Gööney0

P.S. Culprit I'm with you. It shouldn't be illegal to:

1) receive transmissions. (like radio, tv, radar)
2) Be aware that you are under surveillance. Randomly "checking" if people are committing a crime goes against the 4th amendment. That would be like having your house searched "just in case," or for "safety reasons."
 

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