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Starter Motor noses & bolt up differences.

vigman

Motor head!!!!
Joined
Feb 13, 2001
Messages
3,471
Location
Valencia, CA,USA
Corvette
88 Convert ( SOLD ) /1973 coupe 4 speed/1964 Vert!
Red Hook is having an ISSUE.

Her starter bit the bullet... 1985/AUTO

Now here's the general question.

In 88 they did the gear reduction style starter.

But in 84-87 was it the same OLD stlye starter as in C-2's,3's.

(Is this akin to the Long nose/ short nose water pump thing?)

She put a new one in.. and the nose was wrong.. wouldn't connect with the Flex plate/ring gear combo.

Is there differences like the amount of teeth ( which would affect the diameter) of the Flex vs a flywheel? This would also imply that the nose gear on the actual starter has more or less teeth.

Now pile the info up here lads.. and get Hook back on the road!


Vig~
 
Mike, there are two ring gear counts, 153 and 168, but I don't know what's in her engine. Starters are sold with that in mind, so if she did purchase one for the flywheel other than what she already has, it wouldn't work, but she would hear grinding most likely.

_ken :w
 
The engine's come with either a 12" ring gear or a 14" ring gear 11 tooth bendix drive or 9 teeth. It sounds like you want the one you don't have. check ring gear for damage too.gear dia. and through is diff. on both starters
 
Ok so far so good ( starter gear spec's)

Paraphrased from an IM from Red Hook Gal

" I went to get one( starter ). no-one had one for a 1985 auto tranny vette, only manual tranny ( here's where we were WRONG..and I gave you BAD advise). so I had the kid look up a 1985 chev 350, which was still an option in some cars. he did, and the one he brought out looked ok. but when I bolted it in, it looked wrong, like it was too far away from the flywheel to engage. this, of course, was confirmed by the beautiful whirring sound of the starter bendix spinning in space when i turned the key.

Er ..Ur..OOPS! he he Ummmm.

Further Items of interest
research from PAW catalog ( 2002 )
Auto/Flex plate:
168 tooth
1955-1985 Small Block Chevy
States a spec of 10.75 or 11.0 w 1.2 b/c
I have to assume this is the hole pattern for the torque converter.. since they show TH-350/400 & 700-R-4
Ring gear 14.25 inches OD
(measured on my 327 engine)

Stick ( no year application noted )
153 tooth ( stock )
after market 168 available Aluminum etc.
Small block chevy IRON flywheel
Set for 10.4" bolt pattern for pressure plate
Ring gear 12.25 OD

More teeth = bigger OD of flywheel

This additional information pointed out by "offshore":
"The engine's come with either a 12" ring gear or a 14" ring gear."

"11 tooth bendix drive or 9 teeth"

So the 11 would be for a stick car
the 9 would be for an Auto
AND MY 327 STARTER IS A 9 tooth AND IT DOES WORK WITH THE FLEX PLATE.

( I just pulled the thing out 3:45am Sunday and counted each tooth.)

And the total OD difference between the two Flywheels is 2" ( split that in half ) 1" between stick & auto. I'll assume about another .25 of an inch penetration between the 9 & the 11 tooth.. and I think that proves the Why the F**K it doesn't work.

But here's the PROOF
Starters
64-88
262-283-327-350 AT & MT
PAW part #
153 TRG ( tooth ring gear) PAE-3570HT
$69.95

64-88 ( the one you need Kat!)
ALL V-8 EXCEPT 305 AT with 168 TRG
PAW part #
168 TRG ( tooth ring gear) PAE-3510HT
$69.95

AND
64-88
All V-8 MT w/168 TRG
PAW part #
168 TRG ( tooth ring gear) PAE-3689HT
$73.95

This has been BUGGING ME SINCE YESTERDAY.... SO NOW I KNOW!

We learn something new everyday!

Oh yeah the punch line...
1) Do you have the OLD starter.. count the teeth to be 100% sure our data matches.

2) When the New ( wrong ) one comes out..count those as well

3) If nobody has a new starter.. you MIGHT be able to just change out the Bendix..

( since I'm now UP and have had NO SLEEP because this was bugging me to death.. I'll now research that for you.)


Vig~
 
Starter tear apart ( bendix exchange)

This is the mission,

The object of the game is to use you OLD bendix ( if it's a nine tooth ) and your nose piece( if it's different ) in the rebuilt starter.

This assumes you have the OLD & the NEW starter in the same workspace. I would start with the old one first and have boxes ready to keep the two starters apart..not to mix parts.And to get a feel of the disassembly procedure.

MAKE LINE UP MARKS
case to nose.
rearplate to case.
use a grease pencil or punch.

Make note of washers that come out. AND WHERE!

1) With the starter out.. clean work area ( lot's O rags)

2) Remove the 2 LONG bolts going from the rear of the starter.. towards the front.3/8"
The one with the stud on the end is the TOP.

3) Rear cover drops off. ( you could now see why the starter failed.. either missing brush, wedged in the wrong position, burnt , positive brush wire arced to the case, armature roasted etc.etc.) Draw a sketch of what the back looks like.


4) Remove solenoid.5/16 wrench, 2 screws to mechanicaly attach it to the nose of the starter and the one electrical connection at the tail. Turn the solenoind 45 degrees on axis, it should come free.Inspect the grommet that the motor windings come up through the case of the motor.

5) IF YOUR REALLY GOOD, TRY TO KEEP THE ARMATURE LOCATED IN THE CASE, KEEPING THE BRUSHES IN POSITION. THIS WAY, YOU WONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE BRUSHES AGAIN.. grab the tail of the armature to hold it in position & CAREFULLY REMOVE THE NOSE PIECE. It might need a little tap tap action. EASY-EASY....If this step WORKS go to step 7.

5b) The casing should now pull back ( the 4 brushes will pop out.. watch for stray springs & bit's flying.)


6)( if everything went SPOING!) Now grab the armature and you will be able to pull the bendix out of the nose.

7) On the bendix side of the armature shaft There is a cap covering a ring clip.. this is the ONLY thing holding the bendix to the armature shaft. Get a little wood stick and tap the cap TOWARDS the motor case..the ring will become exposed. Remove the clip & cap..and BINGO!

If everything went perfect, you should have the armature sitting in the case, brushes in position at this point.

... PUT ALL THE BITS IN A SEPERATE BOX AND MOVE IT OFF TO THE SIDE. Now start with the next one.

Re assemble as needed.. take your time..
Clean & lube where needed.. I like Lubriplate but just about any GOOD grease should do.. and not to excess..

IF YOU HAD TO USE STEP 5B BE VERY CAREFUL ON RE ASSY WHEN PUTTING THE CASE BACK ON..AS NOT TO NICK OR DAMMAGE THE BRUSHES..YOU WILL NEED 4 HANDS FOR THIS. THE BRUSH HOLDERS SPRING OUT TWDS THE CASE.

Now after BOTH are back together.. take the OLD CORE and the NEW rebuilt back to the store and have em bench check the rebuild.

If you have completed you mission suscessfully.. no problem,, it's better to test it out BEFORE re installing it.

OR if you have a portable battery pack or a charged car batt & jumpers lying around you can test it that way.. put the starter in a vise.. or secure it some way.. and when you test.. have a nut or two on the solenoid stud for power.. and make this connection FIRST, then the ground .

Remember to get the solenoid to engage you will have to jump the "C" terminal ( for COIL) on the solenoid ( the one closer to the block when installed )


.. You wouldn't want to ARC WELD the solenoid threads. REMEMBER the starter draws a TON of current, and when powered up is a torquey little mother.

5:00am, I just tried these steps in order on my 327 starter.. ( good thing too.. my brushes are almost gone...) and it went REAL EASY.. like 15 minutes to get down to the armature in case combo, bendix off.

Mmmmmm more coffee..lack of sleep.

Vig~
 
Putting the thing on!

So, here is how it went:

I went and got back the old core, which is still cracked to heck. It did have a 9-tooth bendix (I knew this was my starter because 8.5 were left!), so I was now on the hunt for the big game.

After going to a few stores, I finally found the right one for $44 bucks after core trade. That, a set of new spark plugs, and a charge to the battery (down from all the spinning in space), and she fired like a champ.

But, to add to Vigman's heroic post, I thougt I would do Kathy's Guide on How to Remove and Install Your '85 Starter in a Jiffy :

The reason for this is because the Haynes manual makes it look like a snap, and it ain't (gee, no kidding!). Also, after doing it a few times, I think I have gotten it fairly down!

As always when playing with big moving electrical parts, disconnect the negative lead on your battery. You'll always be happy you did.

Once you get under the car you find the starter on the passenger side. Looking at it, it seems that it should just drop right out when you take out the bolts, but it does not! There are pretty metal lines running there, and even without them, it would not squeeze past the exhaust pipe.

First, though, you want to disconnect the sensor line that runs by the starter, which you can do after removing the protective cover over it (this sits right in front of the starter). If you don't you will likely break this wire because it is in the way during removal and installation. Also, I found it easier to remove the cover that fits over the flywheel - it is just 4 bolts, and you get a much better view of what you are doing. This is a good time to take it off and de-gunk it anyway, and to do a flywheel inspection, too.

Also, the Haynes manual says to disconnect the starter electrical leads first. If you can do this then you are a victim of a very tragic birth defect, because my hands just don't go that way. I suppose there are tools that will let you spend an hour reaching in there and doing the job first, but I just went ahead and found an easier way. So just go and first disconnect the two big bolts on the bottom of the starter.

Once you have taken out the two bolts, lift the starter up and rotate it so that the unit is balancing on the exhaust 4-way. Now, with the solenoid facing towards the outside of the car you can reach up and easily disconnect the leads. For tools, it took a 14mm socket on the starter bolts and the large lead, and a 10 mm on the small lead. Then, maneuver the starter down through that area to the outside of the exhaust 4-way. This is how it goes in and out quite easily, and does not threaten any other lines.

If you have ever changed your plugs, then you know the area I am talking about. The further back plug on the passenger side is most easily accessed from the bottom of the car through this area.

Once you have done this, then do the opposite for installation of the new starter. Of course, if you really enjoy this guide, you can get the wrong starter, and do it a couple of times, like I did!

Kathy
 
Kudos to Kathy! I see a starter change in my near future and your info will come in very handy!
 
tyrel said:
Kudos to Kathy! I see a starter change in my near future and your info will come in very handy!

Thanks Tyrel. Just trying to follow in Vig's big footsteps. :BOW

Kathy
 
And you know what big feet means?

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>Big SHOES!
LOL
VIG~
 
I guess I ought to be glad that somehow my 85 is different. I replaced my starter in the parking lot of the auto store using a bottle jack to raise the car and remove the passenger side tire...
Took all of 15 minutes to remove the 2 bolts...then remove the wires and slide the starter down the exhaust a bit and it just dropped out. Took the bad one in and brought out the good one.
Better to do it this way as you can compare the parts and make sure you got the right one. Installation was about the same time frame.
 
Hmmm. That makes me wonder. I know the exhaust has been replaced, but I did not think that the headers had been, which would be a reason for them to be close enough to not allow the starter to squeeze by. And the lines running there look like they are stock, but maybe not then.

I definitely will have to do much more exploring on this car.
 
Well I replaced the stock exhaust of 2 1/4 " with 2 1/2 inch stainless with the stock manifolds.
The lines you are referring to are the send and return lines from the tranny to the cooler in the radiator, they moved out of the way sufficient to remove the starter. If you have headers it is why your was so much harder to do.
 

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