the decline of the C4

[Dad2BJO]

Personally I don’t believe there was as big a change between the C4 and C5 as there was between the C3 and the C4. Remember that the C3 was basically a C2 which was a late 1950’s design. The C4 launched the Vette into the 21st century.

As I see it, the big difference between the C4 and the C5 was in how GM decided to market the car. Their target market as noted in several of their product video’s was the buyer who might never have bought a Vette. In their ads instead of showing the car sliding around a wet pavement or doing burnouts they show someone putting groceries into the back of a coup or the guy getting one of two golf bags out of the back. When the first C5 came out we had the usual buyers but also had people who had never owned a Vette but were promised that they could now get into and drive one on a daily basis. Many of these aspiring Vette owners were more than just a bit over weight. That lower entry point was pushed hard as well as the increase in passenger foot well space. We also sold it on the quiet ride. At the time it was quieter than SS Camaro’s we had. With the C4 we found a lot of 40-50 something lookers/buyers many of whom were interested in performance options. With the C5 we had a lot of 50-60 something lookers/buyers who seemed more interested in dual air and sound systems but got excited by the potential power. I was not in sales when the C6 was introduced but judging by the average owner I see at the cars shows I would believe that the C5 and C6 continue to be bought by those in the upper age brackets.

Ironically while the C5 does have a lower side sill. It is deeper which means that you have to step further into the car to get to the seat. This reminded me of getting into and out of the first Ford GT-40’s (1965-1967 series) which had side tanks you had to cross over. I find that for me, it is actually easier to get into my C4 which has the higher but narrower threshold than my C5. When I am in the C5 and have the door open it appears I have at least 12 inches between the seat and the outside of the door sill. Anyway that and the quiet ride were some of the main selling features of the C5 that made it more desirable to most buyers.

All of this is to say that the C5 had and continues to have broader target market than the C4 and as such it will force down the value of a C4. However as stated, because they were used as daily drivers, many of the C5’s do have high mileage. Here in AZ you can easily find a late model C4 coupe with 50K miles for $8000-8500 or a convertible for $9500-11000. Early C4’s go for much less but out here many of those early C4’s seem to suffer from no working air-conditioning and or malfunctioning dash components. If you are like me and like the looks of the C4 now is a good time to buy, buy, buy.

It sounds like you were in new car sales with the c-4's and c-5's. Just curious, but did you see a difference in the number of buyers that financed the c-5 versus the c-4?

I know you did not sell the c-6 but I wonder what % of those buyers finance versus just write a check?

However when the end of the c-4 and beging of the c-5's is when the home equity loans were getting big so it may have looked like they were paying cash but in reality were just borrowing against a home.

Lastly, when considering Vettes, was a buyer able to negotiate a much better price when he/she did pay cash?

Just curious is all since I am one of those "have the money before I buy" types and then if I have $20K try to only spend $10K.

Thanks

 

[bucket]

a few quick notes....

I have seen 2 c-5's in the high teens from Private sellers and these are high milage cars. Seems like the low milage CE with lt4's are holding or lt4 cars in general. I have seen a few 40th cars that the sellers want 20k plus and I have seen your 90-95 cpe's listed from "make an offer" to the high teens. I think a few people understand the market has gone soft and a few do not realize it. I also saw a 1990 ZR-1 with 30K miles listed for less than 20K. He started much higher.

I did stop at a classic car dealer yesterday on the way back from a trip and she told me they are abnormally low on Vettes compared to other "muscle" cars. They either try to find/buy/sell the c-2's through mid c-5's. She had 1 c-2, 2 c-4's and 1 c-5 and just sold a c-5 cpe. She had a 94 vert with 80K and wanted $12900 which I thought was a little high since that was more than what I paid for my 93 with almost 1/2 the miles a year ago. Again asking and getting are different.

The "make offer" ads are interesting. Who knows, I may end up with another c-4 yet

check the los angeles "Craigslist"..i think you'll find some serious bargins...but out here the older cars just arent as cool as a newer BMW.(to the younger crowd).(as if) lolololol

 

[Cruzen]

It sounds like you were in new car sales with the c-4's and c-5's. Just curious, but did you see a difference in the number of buyers that financed the c-5 versus the c-4?

I know you did not sell the c-6 but I wonder what % of those buyers finance versus just write a check?

However when the end of the c-4 and beging of the c-5's is when the home equity loans were getting big so it may have looked like they were paying cash but in reality were just borrowing against a home.

Lastly, when considering Vettes, was a buyer able to negotiate a much better price when he/she did pay cash?

Just curious is all since I am one of those "have the money before I buy" types and then if I have $20K try to only spend $10K.

Thanks

I was in sales at that time for Ray Korte Chevy in Scottsdale, AZ. when the C5's came out. I sold one 97 for cash. At the time it was prestige to sell a new Vette. A mom and dad bought it for their son who had some disabilities as a graduation present. This came about because someone who had money down on the car could not go through with the purchase. I quickly called my buyer the mom, and she raced down with cash deposit in hand. Within an hour of her arrival we had four other signed back up deals on that car and yes, it did sell for 1K over window sticker. In addition we did not give them much for trade on the used C3 their son was driving at the time so they lost a few bucks on that side of the deal. I sold them an exteneded warranty and some extra's such as side moulding. My total income for that deal was about $1250 as I recall.

Most of the other deals were financed. Remember that the dealer acts as his own finance agent and makes a percentage off your financing. In negotiating the deal, he calculates where he can make a profit and how much he can make. In many cases, the dealer will only quote you a monthly payment without showing you the bottom line. Most people are payment buyers and want to make sure they can fit that into their monthly budget.

The dealer makes money on the sale of the new vehicle, on the sale of the used vehicle and on the financing. A dealer usually makes more money off a used car that's why the sales people who have been in the business for the longest prefer to work the used car lot than sell new. His goal is to sell his car for the most, give you the least for your trade, sign you up with his carrier for finance, sell you an extended warranty and finally sell you accessories. He also wants you to buy from inventory and not place an order or at the very worst he'll do a dealer trade to get you into the car you want. If you pay cash you might not get as good a deal because the dealer will loose that portion of the deal.

Van Chevy in North Scottsdale is currently the big new car Vette dealer out here and they always have a large inventory of new cars but surprisingly few used ones.

Chevy n Vettes is one of the big used Vette dealers and is down the road in Tempe AZ. They usually have between 40 and 60 preowned C3-C6 Vettes on their lot and a few nicely restored C1-C2's in the showroom. I monitor some of their pricing though they are coy about quoting anyone a price. From what I can see, their pricing has not dropped significiantly but I don't know if they are moving as many cars. Another local consignment shop has had two C4 coupes for over 18 months and a couple of C3 coupes plus several C2's. He won't lower the price and they are sitting. There are a lot of cheep priced high mileage C5's out here.

I also pay cash for all my vehicles. I have never had a car payment in my life. I currently have two Vettes, two motorcycles and two classic cars all paid for with cash. I much rather have these than share ownership of a newer vehicle with some lending institution. That way if I have some sort of financial reversal I don't have to worry about making payments except for my insurance. When I was in car sales, I had some difficulty in selling to people who in my estimation should not be buying a car because they were already over extended in the credit obligations. They were dealing on a new Vette when they should have been buying a Chevette. A dealer does not care if you go in the hole and he will not cover yer ass when you go bust.

It seems that we have way too many people who have gone bust out here and Craigs list is always filled with people trying to get out from under a big payment. One guy was advertising take over payments of $990 per month on a 08 C6 coupe. That's just plain STUPID! He probably had no money down. When I got my 98 I put my 94 up for sale at the consignment shop but this was about the time the market was going down and it would not sell for what I wanted. I decided to keep it instead of giving it away. I like alternating between the 98 and the 94 and making comparisons on a weekly basis.

The trip is short,
enjoy the ride,
Denny

 

[Dad2BJO]

Denny,

sounds like you and I are on the same page. If I am ever in AZ I will look you up

I saw an ad here for a 90's c4, with high miles, and the guy "needed" 12800 since he owed 7800 and needed 5K in cash since that is what he put down on the car. :ugh

 

[Dad2BJO]

check the los angeles "Craigslist"..i think you'll find some serious bargins...but out here the older cars just arent as cool as a newer BMW.(to the younger crowd).(as if) lolololol

I logged on and yes I see a few cheap c-5s. I did notice a Z06 with 100K+ miles but I wondered how ligit it was since it looked like a long throw shifter. It was a blue one.

Thanks

 

[bucket]

yer welcome..
so it seems that the west coast is the place to buy and the east coast the place to sell..
we would have to use the railroad to make it economically feasible..

 

[Cruzen]

yer welcome..
so it seems that the west coast is the place to buy and the east coast the place to sell..
we would have to use the railroad to make it economically feasible..

That has been going on for years. A Arizona car will almost always bring a premium because it has not been in the rain or snow and is usually kept out of the sun by the owner. It will usually have higher miles because most of the driving is on freeways and will sell for 10-20% more than a east coast car with similar equipment.

What was happening for a while was dealers were buying cars in Alabama or states in that area, bringing them to Arizona to get an Arizona title and then reselling then as AZ cars.... Guess what.

Anyway, sign on to Craigs list, Phoenix edition to check for our Vette prices out this way. If you see something you are interested in give me a shout and I may be able to take a look for you. Now lets not all do it at once.

The trip is short,
enjoy the ride,
Denny

 

[Black Echo]

These things are cyclical.

Many years ago, I used to have a 1988 Z51 coupe, red with a tan leather interior. I bought it in 1992 for $13k with low miles, IIRC (time dulls the mind). Back in March, I decided I didn't have enough toys in my garage so I set out to buy another C4 and this time I went looking for a needle in a haystack, a red with tan leather interior 1991 Z07 because my latest project requires all the heavy duty go-fast goodies and I wanted a newer C4 than my '88 but in the same color scheme (and with the revised dash and the better 6 speed manual). After three weeks of looking all around the country, I found a clean 1991 Z07, red with tan leather interior, on Ebay in Miami, FL for $8100, 49k miles, two adult owners, clean CarFax. It had a few minor problems that I have had to fix but the total money in the car is still only a few hundred dollars over purchase price and the problems were minimal and more annoying than deal breaking ... call it deferred maintenance.

If you want in on the Corvette fun, a C4 is the way to go right now but you have to be picky and patient. There are some gems out there (like mine) and some real dogs. Sometimes the gems really do go for dog prices (mine did) and sometimes people are asking gem prices for dogs.

One of the major hobby mags (HR, CC, or PHR) had an article on the top ten affordable performance cars available today and the number one affordable performance choice was ... the C4 Corvette.

I'm not someone who buys a Vette in order to try to make a profit and I keep my toys long term so this up and down is kind of like the stock market ... to short term people every day looks bad when you take it one day at a time. To long term people or those who enjoy their cars without worrying that each mile put on the odometer is equivalent to a quarter taken off of each potential resale dollar value, this is a great time to get a C4.

Don't sweat this. Corvettes start out expensive, drop in value for a few years, then hit the bottom of the bell curve and start gaining in value again. This is just the bottom of the bell curve for the C4 ... perhaps artificially affected by the rapid onslaught of 3 new generations of Corvette in less than a decade and a half, but the C4 *IS* a Corvette. It will survive and more importantly, it will recover.

Corvettes always do.

 

[bucket]

That has been going on for years. A Arizona car will almost always bring a premium because it has not been in the rain or snow and is usually kept out of the sun by the owner. It will usually have higher miles because most of the driving is on freeways and will sell for 10-20% more than a east coast car with similar equipment.

What was happening for a while was dealers were buying cars in Alabama or states in that area, bringing them to Arizona to get an Arizona title and then reselling then as AZ cars.... Guess what.

Anyway, sign on to Craigs list, Phoenix edition to check for our Vette prices out this way. If you see something you are interested in give me a shout and I may be able to take a look for you. Now lets not all do it at once.

The trip is short,
enjoy the ride,
Denny

i'll check it out...but i'm going to have to go to a dealer so i can trade my high mileage c4 for a low mileage c5...im still saving my food stamps but hopefully it will happen this year...thanx

 

[bucket]

These things are cyclical.

Many years ago, I used to have a 1988 Z51 coupe, red with a tan leather interior. I bought it in 1992 for $13k with low miles, IIRC (time dulls the mind). Back in March, I decided I didn't have enough toys in my garage so I set out to buy another C4 and this time I went looking for a needle in a haystack, a red with tan leather interior 1991 Z07 because my latest project requires all the heavy duty go-fast goodies and I wanted a newer C4 than my '88 but in the same color scheme (and with the revised dash and the better 6 speed manual). After three weeks of looking all around the country, I found a clean 1991 Z07, red with tan leather interior, on Ebay in Miami, FL for $8100, 49k miles, two adult owners, clean CarFax. It had a few minor problems that I have had to fix but the total money in the car is still only a few hundred dollars over purchase price and the problems were minimal and more annoying than deal breaking ... call it deferred maintenance.

If you want in on the Corvette fun, a C4 is the way to go right now but you have to be picky and patient. There are some gems out there (like mine) and some real dogs. Sometimes the gems really do go for dog prices (mine did) and sometimes people are asking gem prices for dogs.

One of the major hobby mags (HR, CC, or PHR) had an article on the top ten affordable performance cars available today and the number one affordable performance choice was ... the C4 Corvette.

I'm not someone who buys a Vette in order to try to make a profit and I keep my toys long term so this up and down is kind of like the stock market ... to short term people every day looks bad when you take it one day at a time. To long term people or those who enjoy their cars without worrying that each mile put on the odometer is equivalent to a quarter taken off of each potential resale dollar value, this is a great time to get a C4.

Don't sweat this. Corvettes start out expensive, drop in value for a few years, then hit the bottom of the bell curve and start gaining in value again. This is just the bottom of the bell curve for the C4 ... perhaps artificially affected by the rapid onslaught of 3 new generations of Corvette in less than a decade and a half, but the C4 *IS* a Corvette. It will survive and more importantly, it will recover.

Corvettes always do.

encouraging words for a discouraged group thanx

 

[PAULIE B]

MY 1987 C4 RED VETTE IS MY 1ST HOPEFULLY ONE OF MANY VETTES TO COME! I REALLY LOVE IT CAN'T SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE WITH MY C4, BUT LAST NITE-EVERY TUESDAY I GO TO THE LOCAL MUSCLE CAR RALLEY AND SAW THIS 97 VETTE C5. AND I AM TELLING YOU MAN IT WAS BEAUTIFUL! WITH THAT SAID I WILL KEEP MY C4!. MY NEXT ONE WILL BE A C5 THEN C6 THEN WORK MY WAY BACK. IT'S LIKE MY TATS GOT ONE NOW FOUR LATER WELL YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.:cool

 

[bucket]

yeah..i saw a black on black 99 on craigs list for 12000.....hot and cool

 

[bucket]

Corvette Chevrolet 1998 - Just Reduced...
malibu must be da place where old vettes are the cheapest....lol..it figures..
wait a minute...i wonder if they have a used car lot in Dubai..?......

 

[Sunstroked]

I really didn't buy my C4 for a collector car, I bought it for an affordable fun car. I find them easy to work on, many parts can be bought at the local napa, checkers, autozone, or online from corvette specialty shops.
I have no car payments as well. I've owned mine for 3 1/2 yrs now, and most of the money I put into the car has been to enhance ride performance.
If I were to get serious and look for a collector, it would be 1 of the following, a ZR1, or a 73 big block vert. I'll skip the reasons why, lets just say they float my boat.

In my opinion the corvette was meant to be driven. And I do it often racking up nearly 30k miles. I seriously enjoy driving my 92 and am now trying to figure out which new mod I am going to give it next. And who really cares what others think about the car? I bought for myself, not what a neighbor may think.

 

[bucket]

I really didn't buy my C4 for a collector car, I bought it for an affordable fun car. I find them easy to work on, many parts can be bought at the local napa, checkers, autozone, or online from corvette specialty shops.
I have no car payments as well. I've owned mine for 3 1/2 yrs now, and most of the money I put into the car has been to enhance ride performance.
If I were to get serious and look for a collector, it would be 1 of the following, a ZR1, or a 73 big block vert. I'll skip the reasons why, lets just say they float my boat.

In my opinion the corvette was meant to be driven. And I do it often racking up nearly 30k miles. I seriously enjoy driving my 92 and am now trying to figure out which new mod I am going to give it next. And who really cares what others think about the car? I bought for myself, not what a neighbor may think.

there is little doubt that my c4 is the comfortable ride i have owned in a long time..
the seat and driving position is one that was overlooked on every euro or jap car that i have been in...
they just dont make em to fit long legged americans...lol
mine is old but the oil runs clean and it drives down the road with very little steering input..
the opposite of an old ford pick up witch is like driving a john deere grain trailer...lol
the economics of the situation are real..
decent gas mileage and decent performance..
and a general feeling of well being..
it's like some kind of drug..lol
all and all i guess it's the cheapest decent ride in the world...
you just argue with the facts...

 

[crash]

there is little doubt that my c4 is the comfortable ride i have owned in a long time..
the seat and driving position is one that was overlooked on every euro or jap car that i have been in...
they just dont make em to fit long legged americans...lol
mine is old but the oil runs clean and it drives down the road with very little steering input..
the opposite of an old ford pick up witch is like driving a john deere grain trailer...lol
the economics of the situation are real..
decent gas mileage and decent performance..
and a general feeling of well being..
it's like some kind of drug..lol
all and all i guess it's the cheapest decent ride in the world...
you just argue with the facts...

well after reading all the replies about c4 values and plus and minus features. i am still happy that i have had 2. a89 coupe and a still have a 93 ruby.
i bought the 89 with 114,000 on it for a low price of $7500. and put about $1500. in it. drove it for 2 yrs and was getting ready for a total interior redo. i got to thinking that if i i sold it and took what i would spend for the interior parts and put it all together i could move up to a later model and not have to do all the work. so i sold it for $7000. and bought my ruby with 42,000 on it and a 2 owner. it has 2 problems which i will take care of myself. the blose cd player doesnt work and the sport seaat motors dont work. but dam does it drive and look good. nuff said

 

[bucket]

cool deal...i paid 6700 for mine and have spent a couple of thou on belts hoses ac stuff etc etc...and my seat and radio still dont work...lol

 

[crash]

cool deal...i paid 6700 for mine and have spent a couple of thou on belts hoses ac stuff etc etc...and my seat and radio still dont work...lol

YEAH. THIS WINTER ILL PULL THE SEATS AND REMOVE THE MOTORS. THEM ILL REBUILD THEM. ALSO CHECK THE BLADDERS AND MAKE SURE THEIR OK ALSO. THEN ILL PULL THE RADIO AND SEND IT TO DR WHATS HIS NAME AND GET IT FIXED AND SO IT CAN PLAY HOME MADE CD"S ALSO.
THE 89 COUPE WAS A GOOD CAR BUT NEEDED SOME TLC. IT RUN QUICKER THEN MY RUBY BUT THEN AGAIN IT HAD 3:07'S IN IT AND THE RUBY HAS 2:59'S IN IT.

 

[bucket]

i wonder about the seat gears..mine is obviously stripped..but so far all the advise i get is trade it for a rebuilt one..($200).why cant i just put a new gear on it.?...lol
and i figure take it to the stereo store and have the system installed complete...maybe..

 

[G Winter]

The basic design of almost all GM power seat units is the same for the same era of car.
If you have time to kill and some donor power seat units from GM cars you should be able to rebuild yours.
Some of the mounts on the worm gears that raise and lower the seat may be diff but the internals are the same.
Even the gear box on many are the same.
The cable and housings have common hardware to attatch with.

Glenn