The Sweet Spot- Shifting Inquiry

[Patrick]

This is more a driver issue than an issue with the Z06. Here's the deal, and promise you won't laugh. Prior to getting the Z06, the only stick shift I ever drove on a regular basis was the one I learned to first drive on: my dad's 1971 TR-7 Triumph Spitfire. To say that car had an unforgiving clutch would be an understatement. The Z06 is much more accommodating.

To a point... and that leads me to my question.

As a matter of habit, where is the catch point when you go from a dead stop in first gear? I am having a devil of time getting the car to go without a significant amount of "bounce" in the car when I apply the gas and step off the clutch. And no, I'm not trying to stand it. The advice I've always followed when it comes to driving a stick is application of pressure to gas should equal the relaxation of pressure on the clutch.

I'm convinced I'm just not doing the shifting correctly where the Vette is concerned. Any driver skills advice you Z06 jockeys can offer a relative newbie? (and if you can hold your laughter to minimum, that would be appreciated, too. :L )

-Patrick

 

[GusVette]

Not sure if I understand, are your having trouble letting out the clutch to engage the tranny? This clutch is so easy to operate. You can even just about let the clutch complety out before giving it any gas. If that is what you have stop trying so hard and just get the feel for it! Foot feel is all I can say. You don't need much gas unless your gonna get on it. Then just do it quickly! You can feel the clutch start to engage, keep letting it out and apply gas. (evenly)
Gus

 

[Patrick]

Gus, that's exactly the issue. Typical thing a person who hasn't driven a manual transmission in years will write about, and your understanding (and lack of laughter) is greatly appreciated.

If I let off the clutch too soon, without applying gas, it stalls. (Fortunately, I've suffered this indignity only a very few times since I got the Z06.)

My struggle has been to figure out exactly the right combination of pressures on the left and right foot to avoid the car bouncing. It's like the Vette isn't sure it's in gear when I shift into first and try going from a dead stop (like at a light). I will, of course, continue experimenting with various pressures in gas and clutch footwork, but so far, I haven't the secret. And that's what I seek from you knowlegible sort- is there something I should be doing, but currently am not? Is there some secret sweet spot for engaging the tranny I haven't found yet?

Thanks for your input!
-Patrick

 

[Mr.Cool]

One thing I do is when the clutch is about 3/4 of the way out I hold it for about a 1/2 second then you can quickly release it the rest of the way. Never get any bounce that way.
Tom

 

[78SilvAnniv]

I may not be much help...

...but this is what I noticed when I had to drive a stick for a winter season:



I have an AWFUL time with first gear, I look like a washing machine on spin cycle with an uneven load. I try to stay far away from sticks and drive only automatics.



However, when I had to drive that Mazda or Kenny's Bronco II, I found that if I let the clutch out slowly until it began to engage (here is where the 'feel' Gus commented on comes into play) I could then give it some gas and go forward smoothly.



This only worked if I was on a level surface. If I was on an uphill...I was screwed!



When I say 'engage', I mean that you can feel/hear the change in power and the vehicle could/should start to roll forward. At just that moment, or just before, is when to apply gas.

Too soon, spin cycle.

Too late, stall.



Hope I've helped.
Heidi

 

[cntrhub]

Ever see a bike race on TV? When those racers are reving up their bikes at the starting line and then hammer it when the gate drops, is how you want to work the clutch/gas pedal. Let me back that up a bit. You are simply tap-revving (at low RPM's) the throttle ever so slightly. By doing so, no matter how you let the clutch out, the engine is spinning high enough, so as not to "buck, or bounce" the cluch pedal release, or cause a stall. Once the "smooth roll" begins, sustain throtttle, and release the clutch fully. It will take a little practice doing it that way, but in the long run, you will eliminate that simultaneous clutch/throttle release that is causing the problem. Also, the art is not to spin the tires. Nor are you trying to make jack rabbit starts. It is all finesse. A learned skill. Try it a few times. Think SMOOTH.

 

[TODD L GRIFFITH]

Time is on your side. You just need to drive the car alot more to get used to where the clutch engages. I have to admit, if the last time you drove a manual transmission was 1971 or so, it's a long time, but it is like riding a bike. You just need some driving exposure to the car, and after awhile you won't think about it as much. You will be able to feather the throttle and engage the clutch like an old pro soon enough.

P.S. I viewed your profile and you were 4 years old in 71' so I guess the last time for you was in the early eighties, which is still long enough.

 

[Patrick]

Todd, I'm glad you checked my profile! Yes, I was a mere four years old when dad got that Triumph. I learned to drive on it in 1983.

At any rate, I would like to thank you all for sharing your thoughts on re-familiarizing myself with the M-6 tranny. I think you're all correct- that what I need is practice. It's weird, sometimes, without consciously thinking about, the shift into first gear is seamless. Other times, when I'm focused on it, and concentrating on trying to let the left foot up at the same rate as I put the right foot down, I get the "unbalanced load" effect Heidi was describing.

Oh well... back out to the Vette to spend more time practicing. More time driving around Town in the Z06. More time purposely stopping at traffic lights, so that I can shift into first. What a horrible chore! :L Please say you sympathize with my dilemma!

-Patrick

 

[Evolution1980]

Do yourself a favor... go find a big empty church or mall parking lot. Just drive around in it, practicing stops and starts. One thing that I do when I'm teaching people to drive stick is just have them cruise the parking lot in first or second gear. Then I'll yeall STOP!!! and they have to bring the car to an abrupt halt without stalling. That teaches ("conditions") them depress the clutch during an emergency stop (should they panic and hit the gas instead!) Once they have gotten that down, we go out to a longer stretch of road and then do the same thing from 4th gear, except I have them brake and downshift at the same time. That's a bit more advanced, but it comes in handy. It's more for racing, but the same principles can be applied to the street in emergency situations.

As for finding that sweet spot, as what other people said, you'll eventually come to find it and it will be second nature to you.
As 78SilverAnnv said (and others), you don't really need to be concerned about the gas right now. Just learn to feel and hear as the car starts to engage the clutch. It's at that point that you want to start feathering the clutch; modulating it. You're not going to roast your clutch plate after two weeks of slipping it a bit more than usual. So don't worry too much about riding it out.

A note about being on a hill (every first timers nightmare, especially when retard behind you is on your arse)... Don't worry about popping the clutch if you're on a hill. Better to pop the clutch and lurch up the hill than to roll backwards into the tard behind you!

 

[cavettefan]

Heidi, if you are trying to start off on a hill, try this technique:

1. Start the engine, then depress the clutch and select the appropriate (1st or Reverse) gear;
2. With the right foot, tickle the accelerator pedal to get some revs;
3. As the revs are starting (approx 800 to 1,000 rpm), release the parking brake by pressing (and holding - this is the important part) the release button, but do not lower the parking brake to the released (fully down) position;
4. With steps 2. and 3. above completed, start to release the clutch. As the clutch starts to engage, gradually release the parking brake to the fully released (down) position. You will be trading parking brake control for clutch engagement.

With the above process, I could parallel park any manual transmission-equipped car on the steepest hill in S.F. and then drive off with no problems at all. Unfortunately, with age, I now have a problem with tendonitis in my left knee; and so, no more manual transmissions for me. Hope the above helps.

 

[78SilvAnniv]

VetteFan, that was GREAT advice for hills!

However, I have solved my problems by driving only automatics!

I actually can drive a manual, I just can't drive it very well. The one winter I had the 20 year old Mazda for my beater, I found that on slight hills, I could stay on the brake w/ right foot and as left foot released the clutch I could feel when it would begin to engage and trade right foot from brake to gas and not have many problems. I don't know if that method hurts the car, and I really didn't care about that Mazda, we only paid $20.00 for it. Yup, $20.

As for the comment I read from Patrick about him following advice of applying equal parts clutch release to equal parts throttle...I don't agree with that advice.

I actually think that advice was given by people who had no explanation skills and because it was universally easy to understand, everyone else repeats it.
If a driver were to follow that advice explicitly by the time the clutch was released enough to engage the engine would be revved too high for a smooth departure in normal driving conditions.

I think the best way to explain and teach using a clutch is to spend time driving and familiarizing yourself with your vehicle. When you find the spot (sweet-spot) where the clutch begins to engage, THAT (or just before) is when you want to begin applying gas, and do so exactly as if you were in an automatic.
If you want to start out slowly, apply a little gas pedal pressure.
If you want to move out more quickly, apply a little more gas pedal pressure.

Overall, when beginning with a manual car just take your time and make your moves slowly. With familiarity the actions will become second nature and you will speed up and become more efficient in your movements.

I recall a boyfriend's younger brother who when learning how to shift would slam the shifter as fast as he could to get his hand back to the steering wheel. There's no need for that, there's plenty of time. When you're learning, it isn't a race.
Heidi

 

[PDCjonny]

Patrick-
I know exactly what you mean by finding the sweet spot. I have a new Z06 and had not driven a manual tranny in 20 years, needless to say VERY rusty. I pretty much have the get rolling from dead stop smoothly, but tend to lug the 1st to 2nd. I have a heck of a time doing that shift smoothly unless I have the RPM's above 3000. I just can't find the sweet spot. Some days are better than others...

 

[Evolution1980]

... I pretty much have the get rolling from dead stop smoothly, but tend to lug the 1st to 2nd. I have a heck of a time doing that shift smoothly unless I have the RPM's above 3000. I just can't find the sweet spot. Some days are better than others...

Once comfortable with the shifting from Neutral to 1st, I follow this rule for myself:
If I'm just cruising along, then I shift typically about 1000 RPM less than my peak torque
If I'm driving hard, then I shift about 1000-1500 RPM after my peak torque.
If I'm racing, I'll put my shifts just beyond my peak HP RPM's, which on most cars is quite near the redline.

When you're cruising, if you shift too soon, by the time you engage the next gear, the RPM's will have dropped too much and you'll start lugging the engine...unless you are really quick on your shifts.

 

[TODD L GRIFFITH]

Hey PDC are those chrome rims on the Z?

 

[froggy47]

Taught my son to drive a stick (Corolla) which of course has a pretty forgiving clutch. A couple of things that made it work for him is

1) Make sure both you heels are grounded, you'll have better control of the "toe" end of your feet.

2) Make sure your seat is close enough. You should be able to press the clutch to the floor & still have a little bend in your leg.

After a year I still throw a "sloppy" shift every so often in my LT4.


You'll get it.

 

[PDCjonny]

Hey PDC are those chrome rims on the Z?

Todd-
Yes they are. When I bought the Vette a month ago, I squeezed the dealer into giving me a deal on the chromies to seal the deal. I really like them, they really shine on the black. I was spoiled bexause my 2002 Coupe had them standard (the polished rims) and they look terrific.

 

[Patrick]

They say practice makes perfect, and I think I'm definately getting better at going from a dead stop into first with a minimum of "jerk."

Ironically, as I've gotten better at shifting from neutral to first, the new challenge has been shifting from first to second. Now I'm getting some forward jerk when I do that- I don't know if that's happening because I'm delaying my shift until revs are above 3500. Darn the luck, more practice required, which means more time driving the Z06. Oh, please don't throw me in that briar patch!

-Patrick

 

[PDCjonny]

They say practice makes perfect, and I think I'm definately getting better at going from a dead stop into first with a minimum of "jerk."

Ironically, as I've gotten better at shifting from neutral to first, the new challenge has been shifting from first to second. Now I'm getting some forward jerk when I do that- I don't know if that's happening because I'm delaying my shift until revs are above 3500. Darn the luck, more practice required, which means more time driving the Z06. Oh, please don't throw me in that briar patch!

-Patrick

Probably just not giving it that little bit of extra gas that smoothes things out. You'll notice the RPM's drop FAST unless you shift really quickly. What I notice is when the engine is still warming up from a nights rest, it can be really rough shifting at first, especially since I don't want to over rev a cold engine. Seems to smooth out when it warms up.

 

[Evolution1980]

Probably just not giving it that little bit of extra gas that smoothes things out.

I was thinking just the opposite.. If it's lurching into second gear, then he probably has the RPM's to high already, and his speed to slow. If he's not shifting fast enough, or he's slipping the clutch too much, he'll get that lurch into second gear.

 

[DRTH VTR]

It just takes some practice. My girlfriend really does not appreciate the brutal component of my Z06. So when she is in the car, I shift very smoothly. I have gotten pretty good at it. When I am alone, I drive it quite differently. I can do it either way. I really like it rough when I am alone.