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TPI conversion - what's the best year and car?

Please don't get me started on that... This will be my first upgrade the the car. Everything until now has simply been to fix the problems.

I just barely turned that corner myself. Boy was this car a mess. The funny part is I just got her in good running shape but now the project is going to be put on hold for at least another year because I am getting married. Oh well, gives me more time to think about mods and upgrades :L.

That's what I've been looking at. Luckily, this post just showed up. Now, I just need to decide if I should bite the bullet and do the radiator at the same time, or just the fans.
Well let me give you my .02 on the situation. We struggled A LOT to get this car to cool down. We pretty much went through 3 pumps 4 fans and 1 radiator. Even though this was an expensive upgrade I bit the bullet. I knew I was going to put a high powered engine down the road and thought of it as an investment. Like I stated before I could never get anything below 200 deg on a really mild setup let alone a 500hp beast. Besides you could always swap back in the old stuff and use the fans & radiator on your 73 when you get it.

Have you ever thought about an LT1 setup?

BTW I think edelbrock has a TPI setup that improves the breathing capabilities. They claim 10-15Hp but thats whay THEY claim. I don't know if thats on the higher end of the spectrum.

Frank
 
The edelbrock setup, i saw run on a guys vette last year and ran 11.98's with it, with only afew other mods to it,he said it was the biggest improvement he made.
Im running the dual flexalite fans on mine it goes up to 200 and cools right back down to 175-180.
Also if you haven tgot the tpi yet you might look into the lt-1 setup instead.The lt-1 will work better for higher rpms then the tpi.I ported my lower intake and upper plenum and will either get the slp runners or the edelbrock ones,im leaning to the edelbrocks i think.
 
You could also get those TPI runners extrude honed. I am not to sure of the cost but its not cheap. If your looking for all out performance anything and everything counts.

11.98 is very respectable considering these TPI setups struggle on the top end of the RPM spectrum. Thats why I suggested the LT1 setup. I am not sure about it but I thought I read somewhere that you could used LT1 heads on a SBC. If thats the case then you could transfer the system over.

Joe are you looking just to convert it over to EFI or are you looking to soup up the engine and add EFI on top of that?

Frank
 
EGR-

Okay, you don't need it. Simple solution, take the two wires that would go to the VSS and crimp them together. This will dissengage the whole emissions system and send it into a closed loop mode. No EGR, no problems. Besides, all of this is really pesky if you don't need it. Just more stuff to break or foul out.

Here are the only sensors you need for closed loop ops:
Air temp
Water temp
TPS
MAP
O2

Other systems / wires you will need to run in closed loop-
fuel pump relay
neutral safety
distributor control wires
ALDL
check engine light


Be advised, closed loop will disengage the TCC all together if you have a 700R4 in it. I would rather run a manual switch anyways. A 4L60E will have to have a separate controller anyways.

I personally feel that the 9th injector is a waste unless you have a MAF system. Besides, there isn't a provision on the 89-92 systems for a 9th injector. Its not like you could use it for NOS.
 
sscam69 said:
I just barely turned that corner myself. Boy was this car a mess. The funny part is I just got her in good running shape but now the project is going to be put on hold for at least another year because I am getting married. Oh well, gives me more time to think about mods and upgrades :L.

Congratulations. Of course, living in Maine, I have plenty of enforced "think instead of drive" time every winter...

sscam69 said:
Well let me give you my .02 on the situation. We struggled A LOT to get this car to cool down. We pretty much went through 3 pumps 4 fans and 1 radiator. Even though this was an expensive upgrade I bit the bullet. I knew I was going to put a high powered engine down the road and thought of it as an investment. Like I stated before I could never get anything below 200 deg on a really mild setup let alone a 500hp beast. Besides you could always swap back in the old stuff and use the fans & radiator on your 73 when you get it.

Actually, since this car will stay pretty close to stock, and the cooling system is working fine, I decided that I'm just going to leave the radiator alone. If I sprung for a new radiator, on top of the fans, I would have to delay the TPI install a few months. By that time, the weather will be warming up, and I won't want to be taking my engine apart.

sscam69 said:
Have you ever thought about an LT1 setup?

BTW I think edelbrock has a TPI setup that improves the breathing capabilities. They claim 10-15Hp but thats whay THEY claim. I don't know if thats on the higher end of the spectrum.

Frank

patsnitrovette[/i] [B]Also if you haven tgot the tpi yet you might look into the lt-1 setup instead.The lt-1 will work better for higher rpms then the tpi.I ported my lower intake and upper plenum and will either get the slp runners or the edelbrock ones said:
Joe are you looking just to convert it over to EFI or are you looking to soup up the engine and add EFI on top of that?

On this one, it will pretty much be nothing but a conversion. Any modifications I make over the next few years will be fairly minor. I'm going to do a compression test on the engine, tomorrow, so I can decide whether I will even make minor modifications. I also have a few fluid leaks to track down, before I do anything else. And the exhaust system needs to be replaced. And the passenger door lock needs to be fixed. And... I think I add things to the list faster that I take them off, but I enjoy taking the Shark apart and putting it back together, so I don't really mind. :)

DarkShark: Do you know if that will work with a MAF system?

Joe
 
Another question: is it absolutely necessary to remove the stock mechanical fan? Can someone with one of these systems installed, measure the distance from the front of the engine to the front of the MAF?

Joe
 
Joe-

I spent a year looking for the "right" system for my 78. I weighed the advantages of using a crate motor with TPI versus an LT1 from a salvage yard, to MAP or not to MAF, and then researched the vast suppliers of systems and set ups.

I went with MAP because of packaging constraints and airflow irregularities that come from a left or right elbowed MAF sensor. Really, as it boils down to it, MAF can compensate for only a little more of a gap in the variances between lab programing and real world operations. False air- the air that slips in after the sensor- will wreck the fuel tables on a MAF and send it sputtering. Why? IT CANNOT ACCOUNT FOR THE AIR. It simply gets the wrong data and uses it as the sole source to meter fuel. The procesor is slower too, so it cannot acount for changes as fast- air charge, detonation, coolant temp, etc. A day at the track is miserable on the MAF cars because of the slow rate to learn. Overall, its very primitive in design and archaic in function.

MAP cars have the faster processor. They run on tighter programing curves, but remember that the MAP sensor takes into consideration EXACTLY what the demand for the engine is for fuel at that snapshot in time. It uses a vacuum source at the rear of the plenum. It needs a stable idle to set its parameters unless it has been programmed to accept a nasty cam. Low vacuum created by a lumpy cam will tell the computer to add fuel, add spark and trim them if the engine lopes too much for the way it was programmed. Thus, big mods from stock only affect it if it dramatically changes the parameters of operation. MAP systems "learn" how to tailor themselves to the engine because the computer knows that its programing is at best a guide. It takes time to cycle but it will figure out the best set up.

Will a monster cam require a non-stock chip? You bet. Will an outrageous stall converter require a new chip? Most likely. Will 40lb an hour injectors and twin turbos need a new chip? Certainly. That is true of BOTH MAF and MAP systems. Will new rockers affect a MAP car adversely? No. Will a 2k stall converter need a new chip? Not unless the TPI is running the TCC.

I personally feel as though the TPI with a MAF sensor is a waste of money. Its expensive, clunky, prone to false readings and damage. A good speed density system is well worth the money. Not only that but false air is a killer on TPI because of all its gaskets in the runner and upper & lower plenum system.

LT1s, that is to say the 94 to 97s, are all MAF and MAP driven. Its more or less MAF with a MAP back up. Redundancy of systems gives a cleaner bill of ecological health. a little more than MAP. However, that system is fine for the LT1 because of its unique 1 piece nature and emmission certifications requirements. No VORTEC system or heads will work with the LT1 block or the LT1 manifold. You need all three of the same family to get the LT1 to work- LT1 block, heads, and manifold.

However, the L-98 TPI works well with the Vortec. The runner design makes for great scavenging coupled to the shape of the heads makes for great power. You will need a TPI to vortec manifold since the heads are different from the previous system. Vortec uses 8 bolts to get the manifold mounted while the earlier blocks use 12.

If you plan on going with a 400+ TPI system here is what I would do-
VORTEC heads
The largest tube runners I could find
A 58mm throttle body
LT4 injectors
1.6 roller rockers
91 F-Body MAP harness from painless set up with out emissions (Why? The sensors are cheaper, its easier to route through the car, and you can stash the CPU under the radio ahead of the HVAC controls!!!)

Get a chip from a company that asks you what makes up the sum total of your engine, car, and driving style. Remember that you need an accurate wieght, gear ratio, tire size, injector size and all the other data to get the chip tailored to what you want. Even if you build the car in stages, a chip should cost less than $150 dollars. I paid $80 for mine.

Good lucK- I hope I have helped you out a bit!
 
Joe-

By the way I have some great pics of the TPI on my web page. I also use the mechanical fan. Its close with the air filter- like about a half inch - but it works.

I have my web page listed on my member info page here at the CAC.
 
Pretty good description. For a relatively stock car, like mine, I'd say that speed/density vs. MAF is pretty even (they each have advantages and disadvantages). For a modified car, like my '73 project, speed/density is the only way to go. When I do that, I will be using an aftermarket programmable controller, so I will just put it up on a dyno and get the perfect fuel curve. If I make changes, I can re-program it.

Nice looking setup you have there.

Another question: any trouble connecting the dashboard guages to the TPI wiring?

Joe
 
While on the topic of guages/sensors:

Where does the VSS get mounted? Do I need any sort of kit to install it?

Joe
 
Thought I'd bring this back up, and ask one more question:

What about the anti-theft feature of the ECM?

Joe
 
It was available i think in 89 and up on the camaros and trans ams,my 87 setup doesnt have it but the 89 and late 88 my brother has does.He jumped a wire on his relay and bypassed it they say its easy to do.Or you can have it reprogrammed in the prom too. Also on the vss,this is what i did,mt 700r4 trans had the vss electrical plug only on the trans. tail no speedo cable,so instead of getting the kit with the pulse generator and a place to mount the speedo cable to it,i went out to the junkyard and got a speed buffer from a 87 firebird(yellow box under the dash pass. side over the computer)and wired the yellow and purple wires from the trans. to it 1 wire to a hot source,1 wire(brown) from computer to it and a ground.The vss now works fine but i still dont have a speedo yet,my plans are all new autometer guages for speedo and tach but in electric versions so i can run the wire from the speedo to the buffer box and everything will work fine.HOpe that helps.
 

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