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Vaccuum Advancement on the Distributor

Stallion

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
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2,305
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Jersey
Corvette
1996 CE LT4
Here's what happened...

When my father and I bought the Vette, I noticed that the vaccuum advancement on the distributor (a mechanical distributor) was not attached. So the guy said that it ran better without it. So, since the Vette was pretty much perfect besides that we just went along with it. And we have driven it and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

But what I don't understand is why the vaccuum isn't connected and the timing is not getting all messed up. And what could be the problems if the vaccuum is connected? What do you think I should do?

Thanks! :D

TR
 
Well, there's two ways to look at it....
1. The "if it aint broke don't try to fix it" approach

2. Check the timing to see where it is set, then increase the engine speed to see how far it advances with the mechanical (centrifugal) advance. Check the results against the specs to see where it falls. If the total advance is within the specs, and the car runs good through all phases, then I would leave it alone.
However, if you are having problems during the start (slow or sounds like binding) or acceleration, (stumble, bog, backfire through the intake) or steady state, (excessive pinging under load) then you really should set the timing to the base timing, re-connect the vacuum advance, check it's function and advance against the specs, and also check that the total advance is still as it should be.

I would suspect that whoever set it up probably bumped up the base timing about 6 - 8 degrees above what it should be to compensate for the lack of vacuum advance during initial acceleration , thinking that would improve the overall performance. It does to a certain extent, but usually something is lost in the process because most STREET engines need all three types of timing set correctly so as to reap the benifits of each through each phase of engine operation.
vettepilot
 
Hi TR . For many , many years they sold a kit called a centrifical advance kit that overides the vacume advance . It consists of 2 lighter weights that go under your rotor and several sets of springs that control the advance curve . Someone probably put one in your car for a small performance gain . Cliff
 
Vacuum advance is important for good throttle response, idle cooling, and fuel economy; whoever disconnected it didn't know what he was doing (some people are under the mistaken impression that it reduces performance, which is not true). I'm not that familiar with the emission system on your '78, but the vacuum advance probably is controlled by a thermal and transmission switch arrangement; I'd have it looked at when you get a chance and have it set back to the proper configuration.
:beer
 
You can also buy an adjustable vacuum advance

Usually $35 or so....

The first responder probably nailed it - they just dialed up the timing all the time and the line is plugged somewhere. This means when you floor it, the vacuum drops to the lowest amount and the timing should adjust the most to let the engine accelerate the fastest with it's coming load of fuel - but it won't, since the timing won't change.

Now they may have changed the guts of your ignition to not use a vacuum advance anymore. You could have some later module or maybe the Pertronix II (I don't know if either do this) or a hidden external controller box and this function is being done electronically. Aftermarket ignition systems seem evenly split on keeping or bypassing vacuum advance, but most people change to an adjustable one.

On mine, I was shocked to find the mechanical or centrifugal advance, while seemingly intact, was completely dysfunctional. (This is the other advance system you should have besides your vacuum advance, located underneath the rotor - as the other poster was writing. However it is not in place of vacuum advance, but in addition to it.) I got a little cheapy bubble pack Mr. Gasket set for $18 or so, picked the medium springs and weights to give me half mechanical advance at 2000 and all advance by 4000 - a total of 11 degrees I believe.

Vacuum advance gives me about 22 degrees, but besides coming in from RPM, is heavily controlled by, of course, vacuum.

The remaining 3 degrees was my base advance timing - for a total of 36 degrees. I only picked this based on what it sounded like and trying totals from 32-38. I started getting knocking at 38 under a full throttle load going up hill, so I backed off some.

JohnZ is one of the engineers who put these very things together so what he says is well-considered, but it holds for any engine of this type from any manufacturer or displacement or number of cylinders - you need that variable timing.

I would get a vacuum gauge (your engine should probably pull about 14-16 inches of mercury vacuum peak), variable setting timing light (the kind with the dial in the back), cleanly visible timing mark, vacuum hose chart, 5' of all the major vacuum hoses and some vacuum tee's and spend an afternoon redoing the vacuum lines and setting the timing right. (Oh you'll find out if your cap or wires have a crack or don't insulate enough when you turn the cap the first time and get nailed....hehehe) Do get one of the correct wrenches for loosening the distributor - don't hurt it with an open end or 9/16" brake line type wrench.

Of course it wouldn't hurt anything if you did this after you changed plugs, at least cleaned the contacts on the cap and rotor and checked the cap, rotor and wires for any cracks or other gross problems. Hosing the carb down (while idling) in all the nooks and crannies with a decent spray carb cleaner is also "a good thing."

For $50 changing the vacuum advance unit and mechanical advance units is not a bad move either, but yours probably work - the timing light will show you.

You aren't hurting anything by running it this way, but are limiting performance a lot and to a narrower band and trashing your fuel usage.
 
Maybe I am weird but if it were my car I would make it like it came from the factory. First I would verify what state of modification the distributor is in. If they just bypassed the vacuum advance I would buy a new vacuum advance canister(these are cheap) install it and time the car to factory specs and then hook the vacuum advance up to straight vacuum off the carb. I believe a 78 L48 times at 6 Degrees before top dead center. I like 8-10 myself. On my 77 Pontiac Grand prix I put in lighter advance springs but kept the stock weights as the aftermarket weights have a nasty habit of hanging up. The lighter springs just regulate how fast the mechanical advance comes in and the weights adjust how much mechanical advance u get. So in short I say get the distributor back to stock specs first. Time it to 8 or 10 Degrees top dead center with the vacuum advance disconnected(plug the vac line while you time the motor) then recoonect the vacuum to a full time vacuum port on the carb(this vacuum port will have vacuum at idle). Then when that is all done buy yourself a Mr Gasket Advance curve kit and chenge out your stock mechanical advance springs for the lightest ones in the package and thats all. Do not use anything else in that kit. This should pep you up a bit. Hope this helps.

Moe
 
Of course I don't want this to be continuing and if the acceleration of timing won't change and it's constant, then I'm going to definitely work on it and get the advancement back on. But, if there is another way of advancement (like you guys mentioned) that the previous owner put on then I'll need to know.

I guess I could do one of a couple of things. I could call him and ask him about the distributor and vaccuum with it. I could just get under the Vette and figure it out that way.

Then I'll work with it to get advancement back.

What do you think?

TR

Thanks! :D
 
I don't think there is too much he could have done to that distributor that u couldn't make it work the proper way. My gut feeling is that the vaccum advance canister stopped working and he just decided to set the timeing way up and not hafta replace the canister. Just my .02

Moe
 
So do you think that the problem that he was having was just with the actuator on the distributor? Maybe I should change that? How would I know if it's that?

And how do you set the timing, anyways?

Thanks! :D

TR
 
JohnZ said:
Vacuum advance is important for good throttle response, idle cooling, and fuel economy; whoever disconnected it didn't know what he was doing (some people are under the mistaken impression that it reduces performance, which is not true). I'm not that familiar with the emission system on your '78, but the vacuum advance probably is controlled by a thermal and transmission switch arrangement; I'd have it looked at when you get a chance and have it set back to the proper configuration.
:beer

Sage advice from John ... he nailed it ... I agree. You need to figure out what all is missing / changed and replace accordingly. IMHO, trying to SUCCESSFULLY modify a system that's already been modified (bubba'd in this case) is all too often beyond the scope of the inexperienced. So return it to stock configuration ... proceed from there if you wish to modify.
JACK:gap
 
I agree with Jack and John get it back to stock, Then modify if ya want. I don't think the 78 L48 has and transmission or thermal sensor to regulate timing.
 
But what exactly is the stock that I have to bring it back to? Would you like me to take pictures of what I'm talking about?

TR
 
TR,

Everyone's suggestions sound plausible and in a general sense I would agree with them; however, I am not familiar with the advance spring set that would take the mechanical advance to equal total advance.

To start with, get or borrow a timing light, and look for the basic advance setting in a book for your year model Vette. When you do this make sure that the advance hose is plugged. The timing light will tell you right-off the bat if the basic advance was altered. Check the advance at idle, 1500 rpm, 2000 rpm, 2500 rpm, and 3,000 rpm. Somewhere between 2,500 and 3,000 your car engine should reach the total mechanical advance. If you decide to go stock specs, then follow the book and see if the advance is at the specs at the specified rpm range.

Check to see if the advance canister has a screw inside the sensing tube that connects to the advance vaccum hose off the carburator. If it does have a screw inside (you should be able to use an Allen wrench size 3/32) then it is a replacement canister (there may be some exceptions to this on some model corvettes).

Turn the canister screw counter-clockwise until stops, and then turn it clockwise one turn (Accel recommends 4 turns, but my experience has shown me that this tends to over-advance, so start small and then increment 1/4 turns at a time.
 
About this timing light, where can I get one? How much would it cost? It doesn't sound like it's too hard for me to do. How is this light applied? There wouldn't happen to be a little online guide to show me how to use it, would there?

Thanks! :D

TR
 
Please don't take this post the wrong way, but it could be for your own safety. If you don't know what a timing light is, or how to use it, you probably should have somebody that is more mechanically inclined to help you, or have it done by somebody who knows what they are doing.
Although we that have been doing automobile work for years think of this as one of the most simple tasks, your questions on how to accomplish this makes me think that you haven't worked around cars to any great extent.
I'm saying this only in the interest of your safety, and based on your response questions.
If you do in fact know what your doing, please disregard my intrusion. :w

vettepilot
 
Well no, I actually haven't been around cars a lot. But if I just bring this for someone else to do, then how will I ever learn! I might as well do it the hard way then no way at all, right? :)

TR
 
Maybe I'll meet that half way. I should take the Vette down the road to this Vette expert and he will help me out. Very nice guy. And he knows his stuff. I'm sure he has this timing light, too. He'll know what to do. I'll get back with results. But, I'm not sure when I'll be able to take her down there. :(

The good part about that is it'll be done properly and I'll learn how/what he does.

TR
 
There you go, that's the ticket. I should have added that at the end of my post, after all, most of the rest of us had to learn from somebody also. If you can get some help from somebody that knows their way around cars then you can learn as you go, and it gets the car fixed at the same time.
Let us know how you make out.
vettepilot
 
TR,

Vettepilot makes a good point, and if you can learn from someone, then that definetely is better. Nevertheless, it is like you said -"...how will I ever learn"?

Therefore, I am going to give you some theory on the use of a timing light. This will help you understand the process better when you finally get around to take the car to the mechanic.

One can find a timing light for sale in most Auto parts stores. They cost between $50 and $200 dollars depending on the number and type of functions it performs. There are self-powered timing lights and timing lights that require power from the battery. One drawback that I have noticed on the timing light that requires power form the battery is that the power cables are just a bit short for use on the Corvette, for the battery is located behind the driver's seat, and it just won't reach all the way to the engine dampener, so that one can easily aim the timing light gun properly.

A semi-average timing light will include the following functions; timing light on/off switch or selection, dwell function to allow for timing of different number of cylinder engines, rpm function, and adjustable advance, so that one can determine the number of degrees before top dead center (BTDC) the ignition of the fuel / air mixture is taking place.

The timing light positive lead (usually color-coded red) is connected to the positive battery post. The negative lead (usually color-coded black) is connected to the negative battery post or a good ground source. One can connect the black lead to the battery post; however, it is safer to a good ground source away from the battery, for battery fumes are considered flamable, and a spark could ignite the fumes.

There is also a timing pick-up sensor that is shaped like a clamp or loop. This is connected to the #1 cylinder ignition lead. One simply press the clamp open and set the ignition lead to rest inside the loop or clamp. Care should be taken to avoid contact of this sensor with the hot parts fo the engine, and it should be as close as possible to the #1 cylinder spark plug end of the ignition lead.

Some timing lights also include another lead (color-coded green) that can be hooked to an rpm gauge. This will help in not having to switch between the rpm and advance functions on the timing gun, but it is not absolutely necessary.

The engine dampener has a mark across it that runs from front to rear on the outter circumference of the dampener wheel. This mark is designed so that when it is installed onto the engine it is synchronized with the # 1 cylinder piston (the left-front most positon on the GM engine). The ignition lead for this cylinder is connected to the distributor (which controls the firing order of all the cylinders). When the #1 cylinder piston is in its way on the compression stroke, the igniton is schedulled to ignite the fuel / air mixture X number of degrees before the piston reaches top dead center. This is your advanced timing.

The advance function on the timing gun is very handy, for one can place the engine on idle, aim the light gun at the dampener (where the timing mark is found), adjust the advance up on the light control panel, and maintain the "visible" timing mark aligned with the zero degrees on the index plate.

For example, lets say that the engine is idling at its (on the example) idle speed of 800 rpm, and the timing light when flashed does not seem to be even close to the timing scale plate next to the dampener, then one can "advance" or scroll the number of degrees up until the mark alings itself with the "0" degrees mark on the timing scale plate. This would be your basic timing advance setting. Hi performance engines benefit with 12 to no more than 14 degrees of basic advance at idle. Stock engines use the manufacturers recommended setting.

So in our example above, if one would want to change the basic timing to a lower or higher value, then one would have to loosen the bolt that holds the distributor from rotating, and turn the body of the distributor clockwise or counter-clockwise respectively to affect a change in the number of degrees that the ignition of the fuel / air mixture would be set to take place.

Basic advance timing should be done with the vaccum line from the carburator plugged. After finding the ideal basic advance setting don't forget to tighten the distributor bolt.

To read the total mechanical advance one would have to accelerate the engine speed to predermined speed settings (if stock) or aproximately 1500, 2000, 2500, and 3000 rpms if you have a modified engine. Your total mechanical advance should be reached between 3100 - 3200 rpm or as described by your stock engine manual. While one accelerates the engine, the dialing of the advance on the timing light would need to take place in order to align the timing mark at the zero mark on the timing plate. Little by little one would get to 3,000 rpm (about 500 rpm increments works well). In our example above, lets pretend that the most mechanical timing one can get is 28 degrees BTDC. Now, we need to dial the vaccum advance.

One would connect the vaccum line and read the advance timing at each of the rpm settings above or as described by the stock engine manual. If at 3000 rpm one reads 33 degrees BTDC (28 mechanical plus 5 vaccum), then we could adjust the vaccum canister clockwise to gain an additional 5 degrees or reach the total advance recommended for your stock engine. Even Hi performance engines (street) should not be dialed with more than 38 degrees BTDC. It is good that the engine be taken to 3250 rpm to ensure that no additional vaccum advance is taking place. If by chance the timing light stops flashing at the higher rpms, then dial-back the vaccum advance. This will clue you in that it is dialing too much timing. The timing light cannot keep up and quits trying.

wheeeewww...this one finger typing is cramping my hand...:L

This is a glimpse at how timing is done. Maybe someone can chime-in any corrections or clarifications to this for your benefit, but I think that I explained it pretty well. Now when you go to the mechanic you'll understand the timing process a little better while he works on your fine Corvette....:upthumbs
 

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