'03 Cobra vs '02 Z06?

[Sal Collaziano]

Hey all. This isn't spam. I'm not trying to get everyone to sign up on my board and post messages. But, on my site, there's a thread that (towards the end) is about the Cobra compared to the Z06. Could you go check it out and add some wisdom? Unless these rumors are true... The thread is here:

http://www.deerparkavenue.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=19160436&f=90060846&m=951604111

You DO have to signup to post a message. So if you'd like, give me something to go on by responding here and I'll post it there. I just don't think what these people are saying is accurate. They make it sound like you can throw on an exhaust and Cobras are eating Z06's...

Thanks...

 

[Ling_650vette]

Sal, good for keepin the vette apperance up on other forums Just explain this, ZO6 is 405hp/400 ft/lbs and runs 12.4 as the fastest # i've seen as quoted in some magazine. Now MM&FF gets a 12.6 out of the 03 Cobra....well, if memory serves me right, they also get a 13.4 out of a Lightning while everyone else gets 13.7+. Now, if those are right, then the 03 Cobra should pull a high 12.9 or so, which is right on par w/ some of the fastest 01 Fbodys, that i've heard of.

Now, if they want to say that the blower helps out (which i've heard is the reason why the Cobra pulls the "faster" time...) explain physics....ZO6 is low 3000lbs 405/400. Cobra is like 3500+ 390/380 something like that, physics is not on the cobra's side, less power, more weight=slower!! even w/ the 3.55s, i dont think that could make up for the extra 500+lbs and the less power. 03 Cobra's a good performance vehicle, it's a shame Ford had to come out w/ it after the Fbodys dead though......

 

[Rick Daniel]

2002 Z06s near bone stock with streets are running in the high 11s. The best time I have seen is 11.897. Mods: K&N conical filter clamped to maf and 26x11.5x16 ET Streets.

 

[90 Corvette ZR-1]

there are romurs that a guy ran a 12.3 with one. Im not gona buy it till I see a vid. The 03 Cobra is a very powerful car. MMFF dynod a stock one and pulled Results:
03 Cobra BONE STOCK w/1800 miles
381rwhp/374rwtq

03 Cobra without intake silencer
395rwhp/388rwtq

This thing is sevearly under rated. would I love to park one next the ZR-1 and my GT sure I would.

 

[Ling_650vette]

Sorry, i wouldn't quote MM&FF numbers for crap.

I feel they always dyno their cars higher, and they also pull faster #s than every other magazine. I could see SVT rating the car as a 12.5 sec car, then someone pulling a 12.7 w/ it. But i dont even think SVT said anything besides "this has the capability of a 12 sec car."

Also, i can't believe even w/ the blower that it's going to be faster, or as fast as the ZO6. Maybe the 3.55s are helping out the 15hp difference and weight, but i'm not sure. Also, thats been Fords approach over the past few years, underrate the car. But, it's also shot them in the butt....99 Cobra, rated @ 320hp. Most of them didn't even dyno 250rwhp. And then lots of Ford guys say the Cobra R was really 420hp vs 385 or whatever it was rated @. But, funny....385 or 420hp....ZO6 still turned into the mongoose and took a good bite outta that snake .

I have nothing against Fords, they're nice vehicles, but my main reason for disliking this particular vehicle is NO COMPETITION!! I understand it's a business, but why debut this car now? Should've done this back in 98 when the LS1 was being put into Fbodys....Ford lacked in that department, if u ask me. Make it competitive. No Fbody but a blown mustang, just means more pony car enthusiests will have to be making a trek to Ford now. Or, lots of people considering Fbodys will have to save up and get some Corvettes. Ok, i'm kinda rambling now, but you get the idea....just my .02 on the Cobra. I happen to like the 01s. I'd have one if i could (same way i'd have a WS6 or Firehawk) but, i just can't stand the thinking in the auto-biz sometimes....seems back-asswards

 

[90 Corvette ZR-1]

Yes it seems that MMFF pulls better times outa the cars then the other mags, but I think that there is one or two major reasons that they can pull better times out of the Stangs. Most everyone on the staff has a stang, and most race them also. There is a learning curve that comes with driving the new Cobra's. By new I mean the IRS ones. up untill 99 you could tach it as high as the tires would take and dump it with out having to worry to much about wheel hop. With the IRS in 99 it made it harder for thouse who arn't used to the IRS to launch them. MMFF has tested and driven enough cobra's with IRS to to get rid of that learning curve.

MMFF ran a 12.79 @ 106.83 ( don't quote me on the trap speed, I don't have the mag in front of me but I know the 12.79 and the 106 is right.) This is on a stock car with stock tires into a 20 mph head wind. They also ran a SS there (GM High performace was there also) and it ran a 13.2 or something to that effect. and M3 also showed up and ran a 13.4 or close to that.

No matter how you cut it this car is a great stright line car. They arn't half bad around the bends either.

 

[Ling_650vette]

Honestly, i'd like to see Ford build a performance n/a vehicle. Seems like they're taking the "easy" way out going w/ the blown performance, imo. Not saying blowers are for wussies, but why add blowers to their cars? Besides for power...maybe is it b/c lots of the stangs you see running around now are either blown or sprayed? Who knows.

I thought it was funny that the Cobra and Fbodys put out the same #s (rated anyway) and the Cobra's were getting left for dead, being high 12s vs mid 13s down the 1/4 mile.

And maybe you're right 90 Corvette ZR-1 about the editors running stangs, so they know how to drive 'em, but then i'd assume GMHTP editors have GM vehicles, and would know how to drive them, but from some of the times i've read, they @ least seem to be consistant w/ factory #s.

Not tryin to be an ass, or start a huge factory war, just givin my opinion. Anyway, the "factory" magazines to me are going to be a tad biased to their own vehicle. If they're a GM mag, they're not going to give the Mustang a good review, if they do thats rather stupid. But it's not like you can open up Motor Trend and find a completly unbiased review now either.

 

[Ling_650vette]

Whats the opinion on the whole deal between the Cobra vs ZO6. As far as these two models.

I mean, is the blower SERIOUSLY helping these cars to pull as fast as a 12.3? Thats sounding ridiculious...Isn't the ZO6 rated @ 12.3 from GM? Like i've said before, maybe the slightly higher gears are helping the cobra out, but i just dont see how the Cobra weighing more, and having less power can beat the ZO6. I know it's possible to beat the ZO6, but physics to me should prove this one hands down. ZO6 win.

 

[90 Corvette ZR-1]

Ling: You have a point about GMHTP and MMFF. I do know that MMFF has brought in hot shoes to drive for them. Also, they tend to ice the hell outa the intakes and power **** the cars. I don't know if they did the power shifting on the cars or not. I havn't had time to read the mag yet, I just glanced @ the 1/4 mile numbers. I was really impressed (as were the writers @ MMFF) at the gains when the intake silencer was removed. Generally it's about 2-3 hp. This gained 14 to the wheels.

I think the reason that Ford went the SC route is that Saleen, roush, Kenny Brown, and owners have gone that route for a long time now. Especially with the 4.6 mod motor. there are very few NA ways to make big power on the 4.6. Believe me I looked. The way that the Cobra motor in particular responds to boost is amamzing. Id like to see how it does with a LRA behind it and slicks. But thats me

 

[Ling_650vette]

I can't really blame Ferd for goin the DOHC route vs OHV. Responds extremly well to boost, as well as revs a tad higher. I get the same response from almost all Cobra enthusiests "well, Fords motor is smaller, but still makes the power" I understand that, but nothing says Ford couldn't up the CID of their motor. But, you're right, a lot of the faster mustangs around, have some form of power adder whether it's nitrous, or force induction.

They did powershift from 1-2 i think, i glanced thru the article today in a bookstore, couldn't stomach reading some of the ways they patronized the SS being 10k more in options than a Z28 and still looking just like one. They make the SS out to be a bland car that looks like ****, well I think the Cobra is rather bland. The 'titanium' gauges they have are still rather lacking in style. Looks like a grade school kid wrote all the #s in. But, oh well. Ford is going to dominate the pony car market, untill the Camaro and Firebird make a new introduction (whenever GM decides upon that).

Everyones entitled to their opinion, and i just dont like this car. I feel Ford had to put the blower on there to be competitive. And now since there really is no competition for the Mustang (even though most of the guys I know w/ stangs love to compare it to my dads 91) me personally, i feel that they're going to start to try and compare the Mustang to the Corvette next. Which is ok, b/c to me, the Vette (ZO6) will still hand the blown Cobra it's fangs back in pieces. And i've got no hatred towards Ford, but as of late, it seems their performance vehicles have blowers on them....GT40, Cobra, Lightning. I like force induction, plan on running it in my sport truck, but like i said i still feel Ford had to put the blower on the car, just to be competitive. But then again, cant blame 'em if my cars were getting waxxed by the comp for almost 10 years, i would do the exact same, lol. Sorry to rant...

 

[02Z06]

There is no comparison between the two cars. I looked at both before I bought.

Z06 is quicker to 60 and quarter, has similar power, weighs 400 lbs less, has better front/rear weight ballance, and handles and brakes better. It also still gets 26-27 mpg on the highway and has the HUD which is a 'cool' feature compared to the Ford gages.

The 2003 is IMO the best mustang ever in that it has all the performance of the Cobra R for much less $$, and still has a back seat and A/C. But it's no Z06.

Stock, it will loose out at the drag strip and get demolished on a road course. If the Cobra owners mod, like smaller pulley to up boost, the car will easily outpower a stock Z06 but there is no point in getting into a 'mod war' as the Z06 owner will always win thanks to extra displacement, less weight and better aerodynamic properties. All it takes is a supercharger or turbos on the LS6 to put all mod arguments to rest.

With similar traction, if both cars are modded, you can't win with 1.1 liter less of displacement and 400 more pounds...

Both fun cars to drive though.


_

 

[Ling_650vette]

02, couldn't have said it any better brother!!!! lol

Yeah, we had a HUGE discussion tonight in Car Chat on yahoo w/ the Cobra vs ZO6. It was a pretty good discussion, but sad thing was, most of the stang owners that visit that room are jackass's and think their modded cars are the be all and end all of performance. The good thing about the pony cars were they were pretty cheap power. 10-15k less then a vette, and w/ some mods you've got a pretty decent performing car. I still say Ford should've came out w/ this earlier, but oh well. We've got a new king of the hill, that isn't likely to be de-throned anytime soon

 

[Sal Collaziano]

Where is this car chat on Yahoo?

 

[inferno-vette]

Now I've driven both cars. Either the 00 Cobra R and 01 Z06, now I don't care about #'s because we all know that these magazines are bias. What I felt when I drove them was that the Cobra R would get up to speed faster than the Z06, and it also felt tighter when turning. I don't know the #'s for them right now but the R was better than the vette.

Stock, it will loose out at the drag strip and get demolished on a road course. If the Cobra owners mod, like smaller pulley to up boost, the car will easily outpower a stock Z06 but there is no point in getting into a 'mod war' as the Z06 owner will always win thanks to extra displacement, less weight and better aerodynamic properties. All it takes is a supercharger or turbos on the LS6 to put all mod arguments to rest.

With similar traction, if both cars are modded, you can't win with 1.1 liter less of displacement and 400 more pounds...

Both fun cars to drive though.


_

Well that's were you get wrong... displacement doesn't mean **** to engineers. Unless you're a hillbilly that still goes with the slogan "no replacement for displacement" and don't know any other ways of boost HP without increasing the engine size, displacement can be overrun by many things.

Let me just tell ya about F1 engines back in the 80's they had a small 1.5 liter V6 torbocharged that produced 1300-1500HP depending on team.

Now the Cobra engine has much more capacity of HP the LS6, just because this engine comes out with more HP it doesn't mean that's a better engine. The LT5 was a better engine than the LS6, it was heavier, but then again it didn't have any plastic intake. The fact that has more area of admission and exhaust to and from the cyl due to DOHC is a an advantage, well you might say well but OHV has better torque at low rpm's. Well then go buy a diesel.

BTW it's easier and cheaper to increase the displacement in the cobra than to install turbos or blowers in the Z06.

Now the fact that Ford used the a blower in that car ???? Maybe they want reliability. Another thing is, now that the blower is on it will be a piece of cake to get a hell of a lot of power from that engine, a few pulleys recalibrated injection and that's it'.
What I fear is many of wise guys with Z06's that know that the Cobra has 390 and they have 405, is that they are probably gona get burned because that car is gonna be a sleeper.

I don't like the Cobra what I like is their engine and that is no match, unless you have an LT5 (like me:d) and then you can bragg about a DOHC with more cubes than the cobra.
It's a shame they took it out of production. I imagine what it would be like to have a pair of turbos in it, and still be able to do 7000 rpms all day long. (not possible with LS6)
Paul

 

[90 Corvette ZR-1]

This is one of the best Z06/Cobra threads I've ever read. If I wasn't so tired Id contribute more myself. Maybe in 6 hrs when im on lunch break

 

[Ling_650vette]

Sal, if you're ever in yahoo chat, type in /join car chat:1 where you usually would type in what you want to appear on the screen. I'm on there as lingenfelter_650vette. Decided to keep the name going, since thats what i'm known as on there as far as car related stuff goes...

 

[Ling_650vette]

Sorry, but i'd rather make 400 ft/lbs n/a on pushrods @ 5200rpm vs 400 ft/lbs on DOHC @ 6800rpm. You can rev to 14,000rpm, but if you're not producing the power, then what good is it?

Btw, that old addage "no replacement for displacement" is rather true, even today. The only replacement is power adders. In which you used the F1 standing. And w/ your F1 debate, you're comparing a sport in which they spend boat loads of $$$ upon R&D. Of course they're going to be producing a lot of power, i mean damn, they've got the $$ to waste on all that stuff. And take off that turbo, and how much power do you think they would be making? Just like w/ the 03 Cobra, take off the blower, and how much power will it make?

I have nothing against force induction, i'm rather a fan of n/a stock performance. (few exceptions to that though...) And Ford did nothing wrong w/ adding the blower, i just think #1 it's horrible timing for this vehicle. #2 they could've done a bigger motor w/ the same amount of power. Me personally, i think the 5.4 DOHC motor should be in the Cobra and the 4.6 DOHC motor should be in the GT. That would be rather fun, but oh well, i'm not working for Ford.

And the only real advantage i can see in the hp department, is the fact that it's DOHC vs OHV like the LS6. Considering that there are almost 700hp LS1/6 cars on the road, and i've yet to hear of a 700hp street Cobra running around. You're rather limited w/ the options from the factory w/ the OHC setup, imo. Cam work, head work and all that seems to cost ya more. But, the only seriously huge advantage i see is the rev gain. But, the fact that the Cobra can be revved @ that RPM all day means squat, if the power aint there. But thats why they've got the blower, to help that out. The LS1 cars were kicking the 4.6s ass in every word. Fbody was unreal compared to the Cobra in 99 and 01. Now w/ the blower, it produces the power, here and now, not later. And DOHC tends to respond better to boost.

Other then that...the 03 Cobra may keep up w/ the ZO6 down the 1/4 mile, but i still say physics proves that the ZO6 will reign...Less Power + More Weight = Slower. Now thats basics physics, lets not get into what'll seem like quantam comparing gear ratio's, peak hp #s and dyno proven #s all. But, down the 1/4 mile, the 03 Cobra can keep up...but around a road course, that snake better have some good scales, b/c it's getting drug around by it's fangs

 

[JerryH]

Hi guys,

I'm a new member here. No, I don't have a vette but I've made the commitment to go for one within the next year. What I do drive now, and it is in some way pertinent to this thread, is a 99 Grand Prix GTP. This is a supercharged car and therefore I do have some experience with superchargers and hoping them up. I've taken my 4-door family sedan to 13.9 in the 1/4 mile and I have seen the high side of 156miles per hour... proven courtesy of a police offer's radar gun.

Superchargers are a great concept and they do add power and effeciency to an engine. So a Z06 doesn't come with one.. so what, its easily added.

A Cobra comes with one and perhaps it can have a smaller pulley added for more power, but I will tell you that a lot of that extra power just disappears on hot days or higher altitudes quite drastically. This is a lot less of a drop on N/A cars.

My point of view on this is also the fact that even if you have a 1200hp mustang, its STILL a mustang.... most 'stang owners would give their eye teeth to own a 'Vette... how many of you guys would trade yours in for a Mustang?

Last point... did you guys know that I have a higher top end than that Cobra? They're limited to 155mph... 'Vettes are in the 170's. Enjoy the view in your rear view mirrors, guys!

Jerry Homolka
'99 Black GTP Sedan
13.97@99.976mph
"The Mistress is back!"
http://syner-g.org

 

[Edmond]

I have seen the high side of 156miles per hour... proven courtesy of a police offer's radar gun.

http://syner-g.org

:L :L :L

 

[panzer]

and I have seen the high side of 156miles per hour... proven courtesy of a police officer's radar gun.

Geez are you writing your message from the slammer or what?:L