'65 327/365 hard to start

[65vettish]

A previous owner installed electronic ignition on my '65 327/365. I don't know how old the unit is. When I hit the key, the starter turns the engine over fine but the engine won't fire unless I "catch" it just right in the crank cycle. When it does fire, the engine runs great. Thinking I had a bad ignition switch I changed it a couple of weeks ago. It didn't help. Before I start throwing more parts at this do any of you have any suggestions? Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[ctjackster]

A previous owner installed electronic ignition on my '65 327/365. I don't know how old the unit is. When I hit the key, the starter turns the engine over fine but the engine won't fire unless I "catch" it just right in the crank cycle. When it does fire, the engine runs great. Thinking I had a bad ignition switch I changed it a couple of weeks ago. It didn't help. Before I start throwing more parts at this do any of you have any suggestions? Thanks in advance for your help.

I have a 65 L76 too, although not fitted with Electronic ign. - happy to help with my own experience. What do you mean when you say "catch it just right in the crank cycle"? Do you mean that it only starts when you are a certain point in the full spin of the dist rotor around the 8 cylinders? And do you know what brand of Elec Ign is in there? Many here have experience with these units (such as Pertronix) and can better help if you get more specific.

One easy to recommend fix is to return to breaker points - I say easy because the troubleshooting is straightforward and tried and true, so to speak. Others may certainly have different opinions on this, however. (re the electronic vs points debate)

 

[Ken Anderson]

I'd start first with a timing check.

 

[65vettish]

What do you mean when you say "catch it just right in the crank cycle"?

I mean that I can hear when it's about ready to fire so I'll return the key to the "on" position, give it a little gas and it will fire; however, this approach just ain't right and the car didn't used to do this. It's aggravating to say the least and keeps me wondering if I'll be stranded one day when it decides to not fire at all.

I'll try to identify the type of ignition system and provide that info in the hope that it will help others help me. Another member suggested a timing check and I'll do that this weekend. Hopefully it will help. Thanks for the suggestions.
Tim

 

[andy60]

I agree with Ken.
Just my 2 cents worth...

Starting problems are hardly ever the ignition and most never the carb. Check the timeing. Are you sure your starter is not operating a little on the slow side?

Let us know what you find.

 

[JohnZ]

You may have a first-generation "LSC"-type Pertronix unit, with a lobe-sensor sleeve on the points cam, rather than the magnet-wheel that attaches to the rotor. That particular Pertronix unit requires that the key be in the "on" position for 3-5 seconds to "charge" the module before turning the key to "start", but the previous owner failed to pass along that information (or the instructions). Turn the key to "on" when you get in the car, buckle your seat belt, then start it - that's enough time for the module to "charge up".

The above assumes it indeed has an electronic replacement for the points; if the points are still in it and you have the problem, sounds like the 18-ga. black/pink wire from the starter solenoid "R" terminal (the small outboard one) to the coil (+) terminal has come adrift - that supplies 12V power to the coil when cranking. Could cause the same problem with an electronic conversion, as the coil won't work during cranking regardless whether it has points or an electronic module if that wire is adrift.

 

[Jack44]

I also have a '65 L76...Mine with MSD's Electronic Ignition...Like most it has it's quirks on starting up cold and restarting after running...I wish you luck...Couldn't ask for better combo than the '65 L76...

 

[Tempus_Fugit]

I agree with John Z below. When in the "run" position, the power for the coil goes through the resistor block on the firewall. When in the "crank" position, the full 12v power goes to the coil, as John Z noted. Check with a 12v test lamp at the coil + while cranking, and again in the run position. If you have no light while cranking, it is the circuit that bypasses the resistor. The light will be dimmer in the run position.

Unrelated to this problem, regarding other comments. My 64 L76 runs and starts great cold or hot. I usually adjust the choke 1-2 notches leaner than recommended because I do not run in it the winter and I do not want to risk flooding, which rich running cars like this tend to do. Factory settings are incredibly rich on cold startup, mostly because they had to plan that you may start it at -20 degrees.


John
Milwaukee (put the cover on it last weekend)

The above assumes it indeed has an electronic replacement for the points; if the points are still in it and you have the problem, sounds like the 18-ga. black/pink wire from the starter solenoid "R" terminal (the small outboard one) to the coil (+) terminal has come adrift - that supplies 12V power to the coil when cranking. Could cause the same problem with an electronic conversion, as the coil won't work during cranking regardless whether it has points or an electronic module if that wire is adrift.
[/QUOTE][/I]

 

[65vettish]

thanks to all for your suggestions. I'll report back this weekend after I have a chance to try some of your tips.

 

[65vettish]

You may have a first-generation "LSC"-type Pertronix unit, with a lobe-sensor sleeve on the points cam, rather than the magnet-wheel that attaches to the rotor. That particular Pertronix unit requires that the key be in the "on" position for 3-5 seconds to "charge" the module before turning the key to "start", but the previous owner failed to pass along that information (or the instructions). Turn the key to "on" when you get in the car, buckle your seat belt, then start it - that's enough time for the module to "charge up".

I tried your suggestion and the car does start easier but is still not right. I'm not sure this is a Pertronix unit - the lettering on the module is 33V-4V. I'm thinking I may have overheated the unit at one time. Maybe I left the key in the "on" position too long not realizing it could damage the electronics. Anyway, when I pulled the distributor cap, inside was what appeared to be the residue of an epoxy coating that possibly covers the electronics. Could this be and if so, what damage have I done to the unit?

This car runs like a scalded dog after it gets going. Sure wish the previous owner had advised me about the electronic ignition quirks though.

 

[Kd8pe]

Starting

i also am using the same electronic unit and i have somewhat the same problem,,i have narrowed mine down to i think the coil,,i going to replace it soon see what happens,,mine will turn over several times before it will
start then runs fine,,also after its been running and shut off for 10-15 minutes same problem,,i have hooked my battery charger up
to it when its not running and turn charger setting to minimum charge it will start fine first crank hot or cold ,,which tells me its a voltage problem,,
so i going to try coil first if that dont solve it i may cotact company i purchased electronic unit from.

thanks
Herm

 

[hazbin]

had the same problem. replaced coil,now starts when u touch the key

 

[ctjackster]

interesting stuff on this thread - I will add my "hat" to the ring on the coil issue, but mine was a typically tricky to diagnose "coil-failure-only-at-high-operating-temp" problem that arose in S&G traffic on I-95, dead in the center lane (you could just see the "who thinks he's cool NOW?" look on the drivers' faces as they drove around me). A basic replacement coil is not much $$ and an easy way to rule out a cause, but I am unfamiliar with a bad coil causing an issue only at start-up but fine after that.

 

[JohnZ]

Can you take a picture of the unit with the distributor cap off and post it? How many and what color wires come out of the bottom of the distributor and where do they go?

 

[65vettish]

Can you take a picture of the unit with the distributor cap off and post it? How many and what color wires come out of the bottom of the distributor and where do they go?

Spoke w/ Pertronix tech support today. They say it's their unit. The lettering on the module that I noted earlier (33V-4V) is a date code. The unit is 2 - 3 years old. The cellophane material that was inside the distributor when I removed the cap was apparently a tape that covers the circular magnet that attaches to the rotor.

Two wires (red & black) come out of the distributor bottom. The red goes to the coil ballast resistor and the black goes to the negative terminal of the coil. There is a ground (?) wire soldered to the breaker plate inside the distributor. All connections look good. With the key in the "on" position and motor not running I got 12.3v at the coil ballast resistor but only 5.25v at the coil. With the engine running, I got 9.5v at the coil at idle.

I'll post photos when I figure out how to do it. Does the above make any sense? As you can see, I'm a rookie when it comes to electrical troubleshooting. Thanks for your help.
Tim

 

[JohnZ]

OK, now we know what you've got, and it's not the one that needs to be "charged" before starting the engine.

What it DOES need is a full 12 volts, not the reduced voltage the coil gets from the secondary side of the ballast resistor; your red wire (power feed for the module) should be connected to the ignition switch (primary) side of the ballast resistor, the side with the pink wire that comes through the rubber grommet in the firewall.

The wire soldered to the breaker plate grounds the plate to the distributor housing; it has a ring terminal on the end that attaches under a vacuum advance unit attaching screw. Make sure that wire has good continuity; it flexes every time the vacuum advance moves the breaker plate, and eventually they fail, even when they look OK on the outside.